Kobold Inconsistancy

hong said:
I think it's fair to say that if you found John Cooper's MM erratae to be valuable and important additions to your game, you're not going to be a fan of this new approach to monster design.
Wow. I hadn't seen those before (I've dropped out of D&D 3 a while ago).

When I first started reading this thread I thought "Man, that inconsistency really bothers me." But having just skimmed the John Cooper review of MMV I realized just what I'm missing - all the headaches that made me drop 3E in the first place! :) I was more than OK with inconsistent, exception based monsters in 2E. In fact, I had way more fun in 2E than 3E. I'm not claiming the monster design was the sole (or even main) source of the fun/the problems; but if this didn't hold back 2E I'm sure it won't be a problem for 4E.
 

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Olgar Shiverstone said:
Hey, the minions have higher Int than the Elite skirmishers.

*Shrug* Maybe it's design, maybe it's an error -- kind of hard to tell, isn't it.

Let's be honest -- how many people in this world feel like they've got to be smarter than the dimwits who lead them? Could be an inside joke... :D
 



Incenjucar said:
Got a better alternative?

Oooh, ooh, I've got one!

You start by looking at the elements of the world that you're working with. Your world has elements like size, combat skill, armor, a tough hide, and so fort affecting difficulty to be hit. You look at what your challenge can have. You look at what they can't not have. (No first-level hyrda minions, please). You then construct a table that tells you what target values a Nth level X-ifier should have. You look and note what a Nth level N-ifier needs, and see if you can reasonably make one out of your desired challenge. If you can't, you say, "I guess the game world I've made doesn't support what I want to do. I'll throw in an obvious exception. Huh. Maybe these are special kobolds that have performed a ritual to gain the extra AC they need. Yeah! Kobolds adorned with glyphs, painted-on with the blood of the innocent! And that explains why they've been raiding the village!"

Then, you ask yourself if adding the capacity to perform a ritual to grant an extended bonus to AC at the cost of a humanoid will break the game world. If the answer is no, then you're good to go. If it's yes, then you find another way to change the kobolds.

I like rules. I like rules that enable me to predict the behavior of the universe. Handing out ACs arbitrarily in light of the changibility of ACs prevents me from doing this. I want a game world that supports a high level of emergent behavior; if events conspire that enable and encourage me to get a strike force of kobolds of my very own, I want to know, without need to resort to fiat, what happens when I do something as elementary as dress them in armor.

I also can't be the only DM who had PCs Planar Bind a devil, incapacitate it, rip its armor off of its flesh, and either lock it away or use Temporal Stasis on it, then keep the armor for their very own. The rules are quite clear, after all; no dead devil, no malformations to the armor. (Hell might look for their errant devil, of course, but that's an engineering problem, and can be addressed within the context of the rules).

The problem with exception-based rules is that they assume a level of communication and shared expectations that you need either loads of source material or rules themselves to convey. There is expectation that, in most cases, you can kill a monster and take its stuff. Messing with this expectation because the item to be looted is 'too good' is not necessarily part of the default expectation; there's no reason to assume that characters won't try to loot.
 

I'm just going to point out that considering that we have not seen the whole equipment section, we can't complain about the Kobold Slingers having things that PCs are unable to use. It is highly probable that the 3 pots listed in the Slinger's statblocks could also be common sling ammo that Rogue Slingers are expected to use.
 

eleran said:
Did you ever think that maybe your heads proclivity for going splodey isnt a problem with game mechanics and may be instead a problem with your head?

I'm not sure, but I think the first time I was told "You think too much" was when I was four or so.

It didn't stop me thinking then; it won't stop me thinking now.

I instantly fell in love with D&D at 14 because it was a game that demanded thinking. I'm a little disturbed that defenders of the current edition -- though not the designers -- respond to every criticism with "Stop thinking and just have fun!"

The thinking *is* the fun.

Compromises between realism and playability are necessary; so are abstractions. But when there's no need for more abstractions -- for example, when there's a very workable system for breaking down the sources of defense among different factors which might be varied independently -- and the system becomes more abstract for NO gain to playability or fun, just a sacrifice to the gods of simplicity -- I do not go gently into that good night of "just don't think about it, dude".

Breaking down AC into Natural, Dex, Armor, etc was one of 3x's great innovations, and by "innovations", I mean, "Caught up to Chivalry&Sorcery or Runequest, circa 1978". I see little gain to playability in removing it and much loss in terms of debate, argument, and reduced tactical options.
 

Lizard said:
I instantly fell in love with D&D at 14 because it was a game that demanded thinking. I'm a little disturbed that defenders of the current edition -- though not the designers -- respond to every criticism with "Stop thinking and just have fun!"

You'll be amazed how well it works.

The thinking *is* the fun.

So is masturbation, but I don't think about it.
 

smetzger said:
I liked the rules based consistency of the 3e monster. I really wish they had taken some math courses or automated monster design via software instead of 'giving up'.

That sounds rather... videogamey. :uhoh:
 

robertliguori said:
The problem with exception-based rules is that they assume a level of communication and shared expectations that you need either loads of source material or rules themselves to convey. There is expectation that, in most cases, you can kill a monster and take its stuff. Messing with this expectation because the item to be looted is 'too good' is not necessarily part of the default expectation; there's no reason to assume that characters won't try to loot.

It's very easy to mess with the default expectation. Trust me.
 

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