D&D 5E Kobold Preview

"I'm not buying the book for fluff. I'm buying the book for things that make monsters interesting."


:erm:

I guess that's a mindset I can't grasp (note: not implying it's "wrong"). IMO, the fluff is what makes the monster interesting. I don't need, nor want, each monster to have stat blocks that take up valuable real estate for pretty much the same thing. I already know how the rules work from other areas.
I didn't say interesting. I want it to be "useful". Anything that doesn't contribute to getting my prep time down as close to zero as possible isn't something I need.
 

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I didn't say interesting. I want it to be "useful". Anything that doesn't contribute to getting my prep time down as close to zero as possible isn't something I need.

What you said was this:

"...monster that isn't a sack of HP and a basic attack."

That to me read like you wanted it more interesting other than just HP and basic attack. Especially with other people who have used that same phrase to specifically complain why the current kobold is not interesting.
 

What you said was this:

"...monster that isn't a sack of HP and a basic attack."

That to me read like you wanted it more interesting other than just HP and basic attack. Especially with other people who have used that same phrase to specifically complain why the current kobold is not interesting.
I do. A stat block of HP and a basic attack is neither interesting nor useful. A monster's stat block must have at least a base level of complexity in its mechanical presentation to be useful in my eyes. It's easy to extrapolate hit points and basic attacks just from CR and size for when I need cannon fodder.

To be blunt, I can whip an interesting encounter out of half a dozen minion monsters by pulling numbers out of my butt and extrapolating from the surroundings. I'm going to the MM because I need something to really challenge and excite the players, and also give myself something interesting to use as an antagonist.
 


Let's see things from a different perspective. I already own the D&D Basic Set, the Rules Cyclopedia, the 1E MM, the 2E MM, the 3E MM, the 4E MM, and the Monster Vault. I have seven different descriptions of what a Kobold is. Why would I need another one? I can just read any of these entries and come up with the crunch numbers on my own. What's in it for me?

Quite apart from the "crunch vs. fluff - which is more interesting?" discussion that has been a topic for debate for years and years...

If you've got seven different descriptions of what a Kobold is, what do you need another description of a Kobold for at all? Couldn't you just tweak kobolds to match up with what you liked best about them in the editions of your choice?

You might argue that you shouldn't have to tinker with monsters to make them interesting, but you don't have to - you can either use the "boring" Kobolds as written, or avoid them entirely. Not to mention that what's interesting to me isn't necessarily interesting to you, and vice versa. In the absence of WotC somehow snagging the Platonic ideal of Interestingness and forcing it to write the Monster Manual for them, we were never going to get a book of monsters that checks every single person's "interesting" box. But the fact is that you rather easily can graft a breathe weapon onto them or splice the kobold features onto the NPC assassin or cultist or what have you with minimal mechanical blowback. You might have to up their CRs a little bit but the fact that with two minute's work you can create Dragon Heritage Kobolds, Kobold Stalkers and Kobold Shamans makes for a rather mechanically diverse and intriguing game in my opinion, and without sacrificing the ease-of-use that's such a major selling point for 5E.

The design decision that was taken with Kobolds was what someone earlier in the thread said - they're the trap-using monsters, and if you ever corner them they'll die in short order because all they can do is hit you, and they're not terribly good at it. Kobolds are that, at least if you're going by the Monster Manual as written.

That's the crunch. They've provided the HP and the abilities there for you - the rules for traps and little clay pots of acid etc. are provided elsewhere and don't need to be included in the monster stat-block. You might disagree with the design decision here, but it's a perfectly functional monster and the tactics they use are plenty to differentiate them from other monsters like goblins. I'm sorry that it doesn't check your "interesting" boxes, but if you're not looking to adjust the material to suit your tastes, you're not going to get very far in any edition of D&D - and if there is an edition of the game that near-perfectly lines up with your tastes, then I'm immense jealous of how lucky you are! I'd say 5E is pretty close to being that game for my own tastes, but there's still things about it I know I'm going to want to house-rule or homebrew, once I've gotten a little bit more actual play under my belt.

It's clear you're otherwise invested in 5E, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion - if you've got seven other versions of Kobolds to choose from, if the rest of 5E didn't interest you you'd presumably be playing one of those games instead! Maybe you like how fast combat runs in this edition, maybe you like that there's less book-keeping than with previous WotC editions, maybe you just like the funny disclaimers WotC is putting in the beginning of the books. But one of the strengths about 5E that really appeals to me is precisely how conducive it is to tinkering.
 

I do. A stat block of HP and a basic attack is neither interesting nor useful. .

So then you do want them to be more interesting. Forgive me if your posts seem to be contradicting themselves at this point.


"I never said interesting"
"I do want them to be interesting."

:erm:


Either way, my post still stands. It's baffling to me how someone can say they want monsters to be more interesting at the same time saying they don't want any fluff or ecology or behavior of said monster. That's sort of the whole point of flavor text--to make the creature interesting.
 

But in the current state, the kobold page is halfway a waste of space to many DMs. You could practically merge this kobold stat block with the goblin page and say:
"Some goblins are greenskinned and monkey-like. Some goblins are red and scaly. The green ones are sneaky. The red ones use traps".

Wait.

Why would they put that in the Monster Manual?

Goblins are ochre.

Thaumaturge.
 

There are examples of what makes a kobold different from a goblin:

Strength in Numbers. Kobolds are egg-laying
creatures. They mature quickly and can live to be
“great wyrms” more than a century old. However,
many kobolds perish before they reach the end of
their first decade. ��h��sicall�� ��eak, the�� are eas�� pre��
for predators. This vulnerability forces them to band
together. Their superior numbers can win battles
against powerful adversaries, but often with massive
casualties on the kobold side.
Tunnelers and Builders. Kobolds make up for their
physical ineptitude with a cleverness for trap making
and tunneling. Their lairs consist of low tunnels
through which they move easily but which hinder larger
humanoids. Kobolds also riddle their lairs with traps.
The most insidious kobold traps make use of natural
hazards and other creatures. A trip wire might connect
to a spring��loaded trap that h��rls cla�� pots o�� ��esh��
eating green slime or ��ings crates o�� ��enomo��s giant
centipedes at intruders.


You seem to be saying that unless a specific power is listed, then these differences don't exist. That's bullocks, to be honest. They do exist, and are explicity pointed out for you.

no need for abuse. What i'm asking for is a few mechanical/crunch examples, an example trap that gives me an idea of how i can use them in game without unbalancing the encounter, and also so that i have a baseline for desisigning my own.

Fluff is great and i appreciate it, and it inspires an encounter or even an adventure, but i'd like a few example mechanics to back this up. Kobolds band together, thats good and helps me build an encounter, but should they get any benefit for doing this? how does the green slime work? yes i could make this up, but i think it would be nice to have an example or two
 

So then you do want them to be more interesting. Forgive me if your posts seem to be contradicting themselves at this point.


"I never said interesting"
"I do want them to be interesting."
It's not hard. I'll break it down for you. The fact that I wasn't referring to interesting in that particular post does not mean I don't also want them to be interesting. I was pointing out that you thought my primary concern was the Monster Manual being interesting, when "interesting" is actually a secondary, but still highly relevant concern.

There's no contradiction. I expect the Monster Manual to be both useful and interesting. Simple stat blocks provide me with neither. Well written fluff provides me with "interesting", but not "useful". To be fair, "fluff" can be useful in the exploration and interaction portions of the game, but does little for me in the combat portion, which is precisely when I pull out the MM the most.

Either way, my post still stands. It's baffling to me how someone can say they want monsters to be more interesting at the same time saying they don't want any fluff or ecology or behavior of said monster. That's sort of the whole point of flavor text--to make the creature interesting.
It helps if you don't assert beliefs to people that they don't actually have. We're not a homogenous group, anymore than I view you and [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] as the same, despite his support of your position. My position is that I expect both mechanical complexity and a few paragraphs describing society and behaviors of the monsters, and am willing to sacrifice total monster count in order to obtain them. The kobold does not meet my standards in the 5e MM. Other monsters I've seen have met my standards, so I'm still interested in the book as a whole.
 

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