[KoK] Two free monster previews!

[Felon]

20 I think is fair for a challange. The Eaten One is not a creature you would attack a party in groups with, so that by itself helps account for the CR. 16 is too low, and too easily passed.

"Too easily passed"? So because it has low hit points, it should get a high-DC ability that probably sidelines the majority of the group before their first action, leaving one--maybe two--poor schlubs left over to get their weapons slimed? Seems like a flawed design strategy, but maybe that's just me. I can say that most saves don't start breaking 20 until they hit about an 8 CR, minimum.

I don't get how you're figuring 16 is low for a 5th-level party. Let's crunch some numbers real quick. A 5th-level character with a good Will save has a base +4, while those with bad Will saves will have a +1. Let's throw in a +1 to saves for a magic item (let's say everyone has a +1 cloak of resistance). That's about it for a 5th-level character. Can't count on a prayer even if the Eaten One botches his initiative due to its 60ft. range and continual nature (giving every character a cloak was pretty generous anyway). So right now we're looking at the goodwills needing a 15< to save (a 1-in-4 chance), while the badwills are pretty hosed with a 19< needed (a slim 1-in-10 chance).

Now the only variable left to insert is the individual Wisdom modifiers of the characters. We can pretty safely say there'll be at least one cleric eh? So let's assume he has an 18 or 19 (not bad for a 5th-level, but maybe we're using a point-generation system). His odds are now 50/50, and he's probably our best case scenario (a monk or paladin would be the next most likely candidates.

Unless "too easy" means having better than a 50% chance to save, I think we ought to go back to look at using that 16. At any rate, there is an established mechanic in place for determining the saving throw of a monster's special abilities. A professionally-written book hopefully sticks to the basic mechanics in place.

I agree with this. A reflex save to avoid the acid damage would have been better. I'd keep the aura as an aura though personally.

Doing so will make encountering this monster more annoying than challenging. Players enjoy monsters that force them them to stay on their toes (e.g. you can do something about a foe with a gaze attack), not those that instantly, effortlessly take them out even before initiative rolls hit the table. If nothing else, take a note from the revised Hold Person and allow a fresh Will save each round.

 

[DragonLancer]

Most saves don't start breaking 20 until they hit about a 10CR, minimum.

By which time characters can easily beat those saves, especially with a small handful of save bonus items they will probably have by then.

It has been my experience (from DMing and playing) that this is the usual outcome at these saves/levels.

 

[Felon]

Again, define what you consider an "easy" save. Is a 60% chance easy? What kind of saves do you really expect an 8th-level character to have against a 20 DC save?

 

[Enceladus]

By which time characters can easily beat those saves, especially with a small handful of save bonus items they will probably have by then.

It has been my experience (from DMing and playing) that this is the usual outcome at these saves/levels.

First off, can't wait for the book!

Second, I expect PC's to make their saves, its only good for catastrophicly (so I make up words ) bad situations to fail your save after a number of levels. Players start to think whats the point if they keep failing their saves all the time.

---this is of course all IMHO---

 

[Coredump]

But even when failing the save, you are NOT out of the combat. You feel helpless and lethargic, but there is at least a 50% chance that it doesn't affect what actions you take. (25% stay and only defend, 25% leave)

Even if you stay/leave, if you are being attacked, you can defend. And depending on if you roll % once, or everyround; will also determine how often you get to react.



HEY MARK,

When you say it approaches 'slowly'; what do you mean? Is it moving slower than possible? When does it speed up?

Cool book, can't wait.

.

 

[DragonLancer]

Again, define what you consider an "easy" save. Is a 60% chance easy? What kind of saves do you really expect an 8th-level character to have against a 20 DC save?

Easy, as in easily made. Roll the dice, add relevant modifiers and it beats the DC.

I'm not saying that it will happen every time a save is made, but from my experience your average character will make a DC 20 save. Filter in stat modifers, MI's and relevant feats and a character easily has enough on an average roll (10/11 on the dice) to make those saves. Hence why 16 is too low.

 

[Tidus4444]

I would just like to say WOO-HOO! Animals with realistic Cha and Int! I remember in NWN, my Dire Wolf had an Int of 16 and a Cha of 18. Not too realistic.

 

[Felon]

Easy, as in easily made. Roll the dice, add relevant modifiers and it beats the DC.

Well, gee, that's well-thought-out, Lancer....

I'm not saying that it will happen every time a save is made, but from my experience your average character will make a DC 20 save. Filter in stat modifers, MI's and relevant feats and a character easily has enough on an average roll (10/11 on the dice) to make those saves. Hence why 16 is too low.

Vague much, DL? What do you mean an "average" character? Different characters at different levels will have a broad range of saves.

You know, I did actually do a quick number crunch a few posts back, taking into account factors like stat mods & MI's. If I'm missing some factor in there, point it out. Otherwise, we're looking at the best possible character having about a 50/50 chance, while the warriors and rogues may well be needing a 19 or 20. That's too high.

 

[DragonLancer]

Well, gee, that's well-thought-out, Lancer....

Its not rocket science. It doesn't take much to work out what an easy roll is. :rolleyes

Vague much, DL? What do you mean an "average" character? Different characters at different levels will have a broad range of saves.

How is that vague? It makes sense to me. I will admit that I'm not great at communicating over a messageboard, but perhaps I should have said typical character... made with the standard dice method and made with the 3rd edition rules with nothing added.
I agree that different characters have different saves, thats not in dispute here.

You know, I did actually do a quick number crunch a few posts back, taking into account factors like stat mods & MI's. If I'm missing some factor in there, point it out. Otherwise, we're looking at the best possible character having about a 50/50 chance, while the warriors and rogues may well be needing a 19 or 20. That's too high.

50/50 is fine, and some characters won't make it easily. Why do you think that a 50/50 save is too high? As a player I don't want to face encounters that arn't challenging.

 

[qstor]

Felon - Maybe Grazzt can help them out on monster rules


Mike