KotS DM Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[pukunui]

Whew! It's been a while since anyone's posted to this thread.

Anyway, I just got back from my latest session. The PCs finished clearing out the goblin-infested parts of the dungeon (they've killed all the goblins except for Splug, who's still languishing in his cell, and Balgron, who escaped through his secret door).

Despite the fact that this was their second foray into the dungeon and thus it has only been a few hours since their last extended rest, they have proceeded to barracade themselves inside Balgron's room with the intention of hanging out in there for an entire day until they can get enough rest.

I want to drive home the point that resting in the dungeon is a Bad Idea. I'll give them some unsettling, creepy descriptions and if they persist in staying the whole day, I'll tell them that they weren't able to get a good rest. But I'm not sure exactly what that means.

I'm thinking I should withhold some healing surges, but I don't know how many would be good. Let them get back to half their full amount? What about their hit points? Should I let them fully heal? And what about daily powers? Should they recharge? Or should healing surges be the only "hit" they take for resting in the dungeon?

Also, I'm not entirely sure what to do about Balgron. Would he just run away? Or would he try to contact the hobgoblins? And if he does that, then would the hobgoblins send a patrol to try to get the PCs out of Balgron's room? I imagine that this would then spoil any attempt on the part of the PCs to try to use the password on the hobs guarding the entrance to the second level ... so if I were to go this route, I might make it so that Balgron encounters the patrol first and they come directly without warning the rest of the hob troop.

What do you guys think?

 

[LostSoul]

I'm thinking I should withhold some healing surges, but I don't know how many would be good.

Don't do that. It would be a good idea if the players already knew that they were pushing their luck resting in a dungeon, and were not sure if they'd get healing surges back; but I don't think that's the situation you're in. I think it will appear to be a DM gotcha! moment.

At the very least, make it a skill challenge. Or...

Also, I'm not entirely sure what to do about Balgron.

Have him jump the PCs with one of the hobgoblin patrols. Make some of the hobgoblins flee back for more help if things turn bad for them. If the PCs don't leave, drop the hammer on them. If they do leave, you could chase them out of town, the Warchief trailing them, until they reach Winterhaven (and The Dead Walk).

 

[Nebulous]

Whew! It's been a while since anyone's posted to this thread.

Anyway, I just got back from my latest session. The PCs finished clearing out the goblin-infested parts of the dungeon (they've killed all the goblins except for Splug, who's still languishing in his cell, and Balgron, who escaped through his secret door).

Despite the fact that this was their second foray into the dungeon and thus it has only been a few hours since their last extended rest, they have proceeded to barracade themselves inside Balgron's room with the intention of hanging out in there for an entire day until they can get enough rest.

I want to drive home the point that resting in the dungeon is a Bad Idea. I'll give them some unsettling, creepy descriptions and if they persist in staying the whole day, I'll tell them that they weren't able to get a good rest. But I'm not sure exactly what that means.

I'm thinking I should withhold some healing surges, but I don't know how many would be good. Let them get back to half their full amount? What about their hit points? Should I let them fully heal? And what about daily powers? Should they recharge? Or should healing surges be the only "hit" they take for resting in the dungeon?

Also, I'm not entirely sure what to do about Balgron. Would he just run away? Or would he try to contact the hobgoblins? And if he does that, then would the hobgoblins send a patrol to try to get the PCs out of Balgron's room? I imagine that this would then spoil any attempt on the part of the PCs to try to use the password on the hobs guarding the entrance to the second level ... so if I were to go this route, I might make it so that Balgron encounters the patrol first and they come directly without warning the rest of the hob troop.

What do you guys think?

I'm in the exact same boat as you. The PCs killed all goblins except Balgron (I call him Boss Fatty) and they're resting in the kruthik chamber. I actually introduced a cavern sublevel to the keep, but that's a story for another time.

I figured that Balgron would alert the hobgoblins to the intruders, so they'll be on HIGH alert, maybe even sending in teams to sweep for intruders. It's only logical.

I'll give them some nightmares, and start the session with a cut scene. I may or may not dock them some surges, i'm not sure yet.

 

[Nebulous]

I don't suppose anyone who has done cut scenes would be willing to post the text they wrote for them?

I'll post the second cut scene i did. The first one was a little shorter and was very specific to my campaign. This one would be more useful to someone i think. I plan on reading this aloud before the next session:

Kalarel opened the letter the bat had brought him. It was only a few lines of text, his eyes flitting over them with growing discomfort:

Kalarel-

Ninaran is captured. Your other servant, the dead one, is…deader. Five heroes are alive. Probably returning very soon to the Keep. Three warriors, two spellcasters. What should we do? Awaiting your answer.

-Shuck

Kalarel’s features darkened. He crumpled the letter in a fist. “BY THE HORNS OF ORCUS!” he screamed at the room. A violent rage possessed him. He swept an arm across a table of torture implements, scattering razors, hooks and knives to the sticky floor. He kicked a chess table over, smashing the grotesquely modeled pieces under the heel of his boot. Lord Maw would not be playing with him again, win or lose.

His rage carried him into an open cell where a whimpering, skinny farmer was strung to the wall by his wrists. Kalarel struck him across the face with a gauntlet, cracking his jaw, and then gripped the man’s broken chin, leaning in close to harshly growl: “They’ll not make it this far, not in your lifetime my friend!” He tossed the man away and surged from the cell with a swish of his robes. Outside, dark humanoid things scuttled out of his way like frightened rats, as they might be the next target of his fury.

“FOOLS!” shouted Kalarel to no one in particular. “Idiotic, unreliable fools!” He swirled into a wooden chair that threatened to break under his weight, and brooded upon the ill news. Ninaran was captured, and probably divulging all she knew about Kalarel, which was blessedly little. She had been no more than a marionette, her strings easily pulled, as all these mortal fleshbags could be manipulated.

Kalarel stroked his stubbly jaw, staring into the recesses of the huge chamber. The pool of blood was close to full, but not full enough, and the time of the Opening drew ever closer. The timeline must be abided by, or he would have to answer to Orcus’s liaison personally. And the implications of failure would be…unpleasant. The priest glanced toward the arching portal situated on the north wall…

He rapped his fingers on the armrest, tapped his chin and rolled thoughts around his head. Failure was not an option, oh no, not an option at all. He would not fail, it was inconceivable, and his years of loyal service to Orcus would not be wasted.

“I’ll have my gift, Lord,” Kalarel muttered darkly. “I’ll have my gift. I shall open the Rift as promised, and your promise shall be mine…immortal. Deathless. Superior to these weaklings around me.”

He sprang up from the chair, shouting again: “I WILL NOT FAIL!”

The darkness did not answer him, and seemed to absorb his words like a sponge. In fact, all he heard was the quiet PLOP of cold blood into the pool. He watched concentric ripples spread out, and soon his anger began to abate. He returned to the chair and rummaged through a pocket for a small paper sack. He reached in and removed a lavender jelly baby, popped it in his mouth and solemnly chewed, reached in for a speckled cream, and then a maroon-orange swirl. Flavors burst within his mouth, and new ideas feverishly sparkled in his mind.

“Brave warriors and wizards,” he murmured. “Come to my home to stop me. Thinking they can halt the inevitable.” Kalarel stopped chewing the jelly babies. “Brave souls that they are, they will be a worthy sacrifice to our lord. In fact…” and he stood up again, his eyes flashing, “…their blood will be more potent than those pathetic farmers and children in Winterhaven.”

He began pacing, boots clicking on black stone. He stopped before the statue of Orcus, its bestial visage bearing down on him with palpable malevolence.

“They’ll be perfect, my lord! Especially the chosen of Kelemvor! We know what to expect, we know their strengths and weaknesses, and their bravado will only be a precursor to their screaming demise. Their hot blood shall stain these walls, and the Rift will open faster than ever!”

The horrible statue stared at him, and Kalarel could nearly feel the intelligence behind those cold stony eyes. An intelligence, he prayed, that had faith in him.

From the recesses of the huge chamber a few dark things shambled toward him, perhaps drawn to his fervor. One creature, with a gaunt emaciated face and pinprick eyes of cold light, bowed once it was closer. Kalarel sneered at it.

“I don’t suppose you play chess, do you wight?” The thing did not answer. “I didn’t think so.”

But Kalarel knew one fact above all else…

The suffering of these so-called “heroes” would soon be legendary—even in the Hells…

 

[pukunui]

Don't do that. It would be a good idea if the players already knew that they were pushing their luck resting in a dungeon, and were not sure if they'd get healing surges back; but I don't think that's the situation you're in. I think it will appear to be a DM gotcha! moment.

I've tried to make it clear to them that they are pushing their luck sleeping in the dungeon (though I haven't outright said, "You might not get all your surges back"). I think they figure they're safe here in the goblin lair because if the goblins can sleep here ok, then they should be able to as well. It's certainly a reasonable assumption to make.

At the very least, make it a skill challenge. Or...

What would the challenge look like? Would you suggest perhaps modelling it on the "lost in the wilderness" example? Eg. making it an Endurance-based challenge? "Survive a night in the dungeon!"

Have him jump the PCs with one of the hobgoblin patrols. Make some of the hobgoblins flee back for more help if things turn bad for them. If the PCs don't leave, drop the hammer on them. If they do leave, you could chase them out of town, the Warchief trailing them, until they reach Winterhaven (and The Dead Walk).

This is what I'm thinking of doing. If they do run away and come back, I suppose they could still try to convince the hobgoblin guards that they're not the same adventurers who were messing about before ... but they'd certainly have a harder time of it.

I figured that Balgron would alert the hobgoblins to the intruders, so they'll be on HIGH alert, maybe even sending in teams to sweep for intruders. It's only logical.

I'm giving goblins in my world shades of Eberron goblin culture, and I want to emphasize the disparity between the goblins and the hobgoblins in the rigid goblinoid caste structure. Meaning that the goblins and the hobgoblins working for Kalarel probably don't get along very well and don't cooperate very well because the latter group considers the former group to be little more than children or slaves.

With that in mind, I'm not sure Balgron would bother to alert the hobgoblins. He might prefer just to run away. But it's possible a hobgoblin patrol happens upon him before he can get away.

I'll give them some nightmares, and start the session with a cut scene. I may or may not dock them some surges, i'm not sure yet.

Nightmares? Yes. Cut scene? I might incorporate it into the nightmare. Docking surges? LostSoul says no. I'm not sure yet either.

I'll post the second cut scene i did. The first one was a little shorter and was very specific to my campaign. This one would be more useful to someone i think. I plan on reading this aloud before the next session:

Awesome. Thanks for sharing! I especially love the bit where Kalarel asks the wight if he plays chess ...

 

[pukunui]

As noted in my previous message, I've got a range of 5 - 7 players in my group, depending on who turns up. Turns out this isn't actually that much of a problem.

Party make-up in terms of attendance:
Dwarven Paladin (very reliable)
Eladrin Paladin (very reliable)
Halfling Ranger (very reliable)
Human Wizard (mostly reliable)
Tiefling Cleric (very reliable)
Human Warlock (has been away a lot on holiday but will be reliable now)
Human Fighter (not quite so reliable)

For the first encounter (Kobold Brigands), I added an additional Dragonshield and 3 additional minions, to give seven players the same challenge (roughly) that five would have agains the listed monsters.

For A1: Kobold Ambush - add 1 kobold skirmisher & 1 dragonshield.

A2 & A3, I left them as they were since they're supposed to be tough, but the party found them a good challenge, I think. Only had five players, but they had managed to get to 2nd level.

A4: Burial Site. Haven't made any plans to update this. I had five players, but left it as it was.

The Keep itself (the 7 players entry includes what's in the 6 players entry, if that makes sense):

Goblin Guard Room: 6 players, add 1 Goblin Sharpshooter. 7 players, add 1 Goblin Warrior & 2 Goblin cutters.

Torture Chamber: 6 players, add 1 Sharpshooter. 7 players, add 2 Warriors & 2 Goblin Cutters.

Excavation Site: 6 players, add 1 Sharpshooter. 7 players, add 1 Drake.

Chieftain's Lair: 6 players, add 1 Sharpshooter & 2 Cutters. 7 players, add 1 Guard Drake & 2 more Cutters.

Crypt of Shadows: 6 players, add 1 Zombie & 1 Zombie Rotter. 7 players, add 4 more Rotters.

Hidden Armoury: 6 players, add 1 Zombie. 7 players, add another Zombie and consider making the room bigger.

Skeletal Legion: I've left this untouched as I couldn't see a way to make it work with any more monsters - any ideas?

Sir Keegan's Tomb: Left this untouched as the party shouldn't be fighting him anyway.

The Maze of Caves: 6 players, add 4 Giant Rats. 7 players, add another 4.

Kruthik Lair: I'm going to leave this as I think it's going to be tough enough as it is.

The Water Cave: This is a Solo monster so I'm leaving it alone.

Interlude: The Dead Walk:

Agrid, the Gnome Skulk from the Dragon Tomb was captured by the party. Assuming he's still alive, I'm going to have him break out of jail and join the fight here alongside Ninaran. 6 players, add 1 Gravehound. 7 players, add 6 Decrepit Skeletons.

Keep Level Two:

Hobgoblin Guard Room: 6 players, add 1 Soldier & 1 Grunt. 7 players, add another 5 Grunts. Don't put any more Grunts near the Deathjump spider unless you're feeling really mean, though.

Hobgoblin Barracks: 6 players, add 1 Soldier. 7 players, add a second Warcaster (I might make them twins or something - certainly they'll act together).

Warchief's Council Room: 6 players, add 1 Soldier. 7 players, add 4 Grunts.

Corridors of the Cube: 7 players, add another Corruption Corpse.

Chamber of Statues: Left this one alone - too tricky to go adding traps in.

Ghoul Warren: 6 players, add 1 Zombie and 3 Zombie Rotters. 6 players, add 1 Ghoul.

Cathedral of Shadow: 6 players, add 4 Vampire Spawn. 7 players, add 1 Beserker.

The Shadow Rift: 6 players, add 1 Skeleton Warrior & 5 Decrepit Skeletons. 7 players, add 1 Corruption Corpse & 1 Gravehound Zombie. My plan here is to have the Decrepit Skeletons lined up on the stairs next Kalarel, as if worshipping him. The Corruption Corpse can join the Deathlock Wight as artillery from the other side, with the Gravehound Zombie as Kalarel's "pet".

Hope this is useful to someone! Please let me know what you think of my decisions.

I'll be doing the same for H2 & H3 and beyond - it's a useful exercise in building encounters, for a start.

Turns out this'll be useful for me after all as my group is about to expand to 7 players. Got any tips on how to manage such a big group?

 

[pukunui]

Don't do that. It would be a good idea if the players already knew that they were pushing their luck resting in a dungeon, and were not sure if they'd get healing surges back; but I don't think that's the situation you're in. I think it will appear to be a DM gotcha! moment.

At the very least, make it a skill challenge. Or...

Skill Challenge: Survive the night in the haunted dungeon!

I'm thinking ...

Endurance: tough it out
Religion: prayers to ward off evil, some sort of religious ritual to ward off evil, etc
Arcana: some magic ritual to ward off evil?
History: recall a story of some great hero who survived a night in a dungeon (grants a +2 bonus to the next check made by any character)

Success: XP and full rest
Failure: No XP? Half XP? Don't get back all healing surges and/or hit points?


Help me flesh it out please.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Turns out this'll be useful for me after all as my group is about to expand to 7 players. Got any tips on how to manage such a big group?

My big tip is this:

Make sure on your turn that you act quickly and decisively with your monsters - that way, when it's the players turn you can keep the pace up by harrying them for their actions and what they want to do.

Other than that - all the usual advice applies (there's some great stuff in the DMG). Pick a party leader for out-of-combat talk, make sure everyone has power cards, etc.

 

[pukunui]

My big tip is this:

Make sure on your turn that you act quickly and decisively with your monsters - that way, when it's the players turn you can keep the pace up by harrying them for their actions and what they want to do.

Other than that - all the usual advice applies (there's some great stuff in the DMG). Pick a party leader for out-of-combat talk, make sure everyone has power cards, etc.

Thanks for that!

 

[pukunui]

Last session I ran two skill challenges back to back: the players had barricaded themselves in Balgron the Fat's room, but he had escaped, so I had him bring a hobgoblin patrol back. The first challenge consisted of the PCs trying to keep the hobgoblins out. They succeeded in doing this, so because they had to hang around for a full day to get another extended rest, I ran a series of mini skill challenges with the restless spirits and malevolent influence of the Shadowfell rift that meant some of them failed to get all their healing surges back.

I don't know that I did either of these very well as the players just didn't seem to "get" it a lot of time. Oh well.

Then, in the morning I had Ninaran "lure" the hobgoblins away and then tell the PCs they had to come back to town urgently. She wouldn't explain so they got a bit suspicious but they went anyway and I ran the Dead Walk encounter. I had it snowing the whole time, which of course is a great idea but not all that evocative in execution because it ends up just being a flat penalty to attack people ... Oh well.

This is the main reason for my post today: as the PCs were making short work of all the skeletal minions, it suddenly occurred to me that the magic circle should play a more active role in the encounter ... so I had it randomly flash and cause all the fallen skeletons to rise up again, so the PCs had to fight them all over again. After this had happened a few times, they finally figured out what was going on and went to try and disrupt the circle.

I had Ninaran run away and "replaced" her with an undead mage based on the human mage in the MM (I had hoped my players would go "Oh no, it's a lich!" but I don't think I described it well enough because no one did). His thunder clap and dancing lightning were fun but he got taken out pretty quickly.

The zombie dogs were fun, though. They kept biting the minotaur fighter and dragging him to the ground, so he spent a good bit of the fight falling down and standing up and falling down and at one point he was dazed (the mage's thunder clap) so he stood up and couldn't do anything else. Ha ha.

Anyway ... just thought I'd share. The players really seemed to enjoy the idea of having skeletons that just kept getting back up again (although one of them kept saying they should get multiple amounts of XP -- but the way I reasoned it is that the skeletons weren't being defeated by knocking them down. The only way to "defeat" them was to get rid of the circle ... I might give them some extra XP anyway though).