D&D General Kratos, God of War, CR 32, 5th Edition stats

Interested to hear opinions on the following Intermediate Deity stat block for Kratos, using my new Immortals Handbook 5E ruleset. Was trying to fit everything into the single page and had to omit a few details, but its decent enough. Note for copyright reasons Kratos (the game version at least) is not in the actual book. Also note this is not meant for groups of Epic Level characters to face, CR 32 would be more for groups of quasi-deity players.

Kratos Stat Block.jpg



Kratos final.jpg
 

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Maialideth

Explorer
He definitely looks like a god-slayer.

At a quick glance I'd note that Parry should be a Reaction, and he has extra attacks from both God of War trait, multiattack and bonus action... personally I'd include all of them in the multiattack action (maybe specify in the trait that they are included there), monsters rarely need bonus actions in my opinion.
 

dave2008

Legend
I've really only look at the statblock so that is all I will comment on at this time. In general there is a lot to like, but a few items that are inconsistent with standard 5e could cause some confusion. He seems about the correct power level for a CR 32 monster, but I would prefer to deities to use the Mythic Trait to be even sturdier. Anyway, here are some more detailed comments:
  1. I like the CR and XP in the title bar
  2. The hit points seem low to me at first glance, but I get that he has a lot of resistances so it is probably OK.
  3. I initially thought is speed was low, but realized he can move 6x this amount if you include LA. So this is probably OK
  4. I like the ability score format. What does L-30 mean? Legendary 30? What is the effect?
  5. I would probably give him Dex save and/or Cha save.
  6. I feel look a good needs more skills, bit those make sense
  7. I like including legendary resistance in the resistances line. why do you go with crush instead of bludgeoning?
  8. I am surprised he doesn't have any condition resistances / immunities.
  9. It seems odd for a god to have no special senses.
  10. I would probably leave "Terrain" out of the statblock. Seems more fitting for written entry.
  11. God of War seems like a wasted line. Just include the extra attacks like typical 5e statblocks, you don't need to justify it. As it is now, sense you didn't specify otherwise like typical 5e, my assumption would be Kratos gets 3 attacks in his multiattack, plus another attack from "God of War," so 4 attacks (+ bonus action). I don't think that is what you meant, but I could be wrong.
  12. Intermediate-deity doesn't clarify, as is the 5e standard, that the damage is included in the attack. The assumption from someone familiar with 5e would be that his Blades of Chaos Slash does 25d6 + 13 slashing damage. I don't think that is what you intend, but I could be wrong.
  13. Legendary Constitution feels constructed strangely. I would simply say: Legendary Constitution (5/Day). Kratos can spend one legendary action to ignore the effects of an attack.
  14. Legendary Strength also feels strangely written. I don't know what is intend "using this to hit." Does that mean it is an autohit + 100 more damage. Or do you use this after you have hit to increase the damage? Also, what does NB stand for?
  15. Multiattack: Is the offhand attack a bonus action or part of the multiattack?
  16. Parry should be a reaction, not a bonus action.
  17. IIRC, you don't figure legendary actions in your CR calculation. A 180 (40d8) cone-of-cold + 47 Chaos Slash seems like significant CR altering amounts of damage. Did you change your plan?
 

Hey there Maialideth, thanks for the feedback. :)

He definitely looks like a god-slayer.

That's what I was going for.

At a quick glance I'd note that Parry should be a Reaction,

Yes, someone else mentioned this.

and he has extra attacks from both God of War trait, multiattack and bonus action... personally I'd include all of them in the multiattack action (maybe specify in the trait that they are included there), monsters rarely need bonus actions in my opinion.

Frenzy from the Berserker Path gives an extra attack as a Bonus Action, hence why that was included. The (other) extra attack is from the War portfolio. Obviously he can attack again with Legendary Actions. So he does have a lot of options in that regard.
 

I've really only look at the statblock so that is all I will comment on at this time. In general there is a lot to like, but a few items that are inconsistent with standard 5e could cause some confusion. He seems about the correct power level for a CR 32 monster, but I would prefer to deities to use the Mythic Trait to be even sturdier. Anyway, here are some more detailed comments:
Hey Dave buddy - thanks for the feeback! :)

I like the CR and XP in the title bar

I was looking at 4E stat-blocks and they seem to get more information on the page in a smaller sized space. So I went with something like that so I could keep my 3 column layout.

  • The hit points seem low to me at first glance, but I get that he has a lot of resistances so it is probably OK.

One of my editors said the same thing last night.

Technically Intermediate God covers CR 29-32. His hit points fall under the CR 30 bracket, although the other stuff is a bit higher.

  • I initially thought is speed was low, but realized he can move 6x this amount if you include LA. So this is probably OK

Yeah I am not big on upping the movement needlessly (Obviously Travel portfolio and stuff like that will have it), I don't think it improves combat.

  • I like the ability score format. What does L-30 mean? Legendary 30? What is the effect?

Yes Legendary 30. Scores are capped at 30 but Legendary Scores let you break the rules for strength up to your Legendary Resistance number per day. In terms of raw power I have it set at +100 damage (if you want to use it that way).

Technically Kratos could perform 5 crazy feats of strength (per day) throw a Tarrasque, trip Godzilla, hold up the Sky, smash a force field etc. But that doesn't take him into the Cosmic Realm of juggling Moons and so forth...I get to that later in the book.

  • I would probably give him Dex save and/or Cha save.

Yes I meant to add the other saves. Was just pressed for time.

  • I feel look a good needs more skills, bit those make sense

Probably I was thinking Barbarian + Soldier Background and they were both the same Skill.

  • I like including legendary resistance in the resistances line. why do you go with crush instead of bludgeoning?

Shorter word, helps me cram more in.

  • I am surprised he doesn't have any condition resistances / immunities.

Gods are immune to nature and natural threats. I didn't see why Kratos would be specifically resistant to any form of Magic Energy - in fact he may be weak to magic (since that is the War Portfolio 'curse')

  • It seems odd for a god to have no special senses.

Well, he does have a few Barbarian senses I didn't mention.

  • I would probably leave "Terrain" out of the statblock. Seems more fitting for written entry.

Could free up a line. Good idea.

  • God of War seems like a wasted line. Just include the extra attacks like typical 5e statblocks, you don't need to justify it. As it is now, sense you didn't specify otherwise like typical 5e, my assumption would be Kratos gets 3 attacks in his multiattack, plus another attack from "God of War," so 4 attacks (+ bonus action). I don't think that is what you meant, but I could be wrong.

2 Attacks from Barbarian
+1 God of War (War Portfolio)
+1 Frenzy (Bonus Action)
+1 or 2 more from Legendary Actions

  • Intermediate-deity doesn't clarify, as is the 5e standard, that the damage is included in the attack. The assumption from someone familiar with 5e would be that his Blades of Chaos Slash does 25d6 + 13 slashing damage. I don't think that is what you intend, but I could be wrong.

I may remove that line in case it causes confusion, yes its only 5d6 for the Blades of Chaos.

1d6+3 (normal damage) plus 1d6 fire damage
5d6+3 plus 5d6 fire for Kratos (due to x5 for Intermediate Deity Template

  • Legendary Constitution feels constructed strangely. I would simply say: Legendary Constitution (5/Day). Kratos can spend one legendary action to ignore the effects of an attack.

Okay.

  • Legendary Strength also feels strangely written. I don't know what is intend "using this to hit." Does that mean it is an autohit + 100 more damage. Or do you use this after you have hit to increase the damage? Also, what does NB stand for?

It would be +100 to hit and damage on a single attack if he expends a use of Legendary Strength.

  • Multiattack: Is the offhand attack a bonus action or part of the multiattack?

This is the complication of him having 3 modes of attack (Axe, Blades and Unarmed Attacks)

He gets 3 attacks with the axe BUT the blades of Chaos are dual weapons as are technically his fists, hence that extra attack.

  • Parry should be a reaction, not a bonus action.

Noted.

  • IIRC, you don't figure legendary actions in your CR calculation. A 180 (40d8) cone-of-cold + 47 Chaos Slash seems like significant CR altering amounts of damage. Did you change your plan?

Legendary Action cost 2 is 100% value of a standard weapon attack (as I rate them) which itself should average close to 25% of the listed DPR for CR 32 (375) or 93 per hit. I may need to tweak the Legendary Action cost for the elemental attacks.

Leviathan Axe 2-handed strike is 5d10+13 plus 5d10 cold so 68, 88 while raging. I probably should have the Elemental Attack as a Cost 4 Legendary Action, not cost 3.

Thanks for the lengthy feedback buddy. Very helpful.
 

dave2008

Legend
Hey Dave buddy - thanks for the feeback! :)
Happy to help (and not work!)

Yes Legendary 30. Scores are capped at 30 but Legendary Scores let you break the rules for strength up to your Legendary Resistance number per day. In terms of raw power I have it set at +100 damage (if you want to use it that way).

Technically Kratos could perform 5 crazy feats of strength (per day) throw a Tarrasque, trip Godzilla, hold up the Sky, smash a force field etc. But that doesn't take him into the Cosmic Realm of juggling Moons and so forth...I get to that later in the book.
That is a cool idea and should be really fun. I look forward to learning more. Part of me wishes I did something like this with my "Immortals" guide, but I'm going a different direction.
Shorter word, helps me cram more in.
That is what I guess. not my preference, but I understand the desire to cram more into less space.
Gods are immune to nature and natural threats. I didn't see why Kratos would be specifically resistant to any form of Magic Energy - in fact he may be weak to magic (since that is the War Portfolio 'curse')
Ok, should that be reflected in the statblock? "Deity Resistances" or something?
Well, he does have a few Barbarian senses I didn't mention.
Are you limiting gods to their classes or portfolios? I just generally give deities truesight as a general rule, but everyone has different ideas of what a deity is
2 Attacks from Barbarian
+1 God of War (War Portfolio)
+1 Frenzy (Bonus Action)
+1 or 2 more from Legendary Actions
That is my point. The way it reads now (based on 5e standards) is:
3 attacks from Multiattack
+1 attack from God of War
+1 Frenzy
+ Legendary Actions

In 5e, when a trait modifies an action, and the modification is included in that action, it is notes as "included in the attack.:
1667938938841.png

And generally extra actions are just including multiattack, no reason needed.
I may remove that line in case it causes confusion, yes its only 5d6 for the Blades of Chaos.
I think that is a good idea - see snip above with...
1667939024355.png


Not that you have to follow this format, but it can be an issue for DMs who are coming from an 8 year old standard.
It would be +100 to hit and damage on a single attack if he expends a use of Legendary Strength.
Wow, OK I didn't understand that (pretty awesome by the way). I think a rephrasing might help.
This is the complication of him having 3 modes of attack (Axe, Blades and Unarmed Attacks)

He gets 3 attacks with the axe BUT the blades of Chaos are dual weapons as are technically his fists, hence that extra attack.
OK, I guess it comes from perhaps rely on knowledge or PC classes. I can't speak for all DMs but I don't carry around a boatload of PC class knowledge. I only know what my current PCs can do (we don't have a barbarian). So I think relying to much on that assumed knowledge could be a problem. IMO, it is better to make a monster statblock and not worry to much about following a class paradigm.
Noted.
Legendary Action cost 2 is 100% value of a standard weapon attack (as I rate them) which itself should average close to 25% of the listed DPR for CR 32 (375) or 93 per hit. I may need to tweak the Legendary Action cost for the elemental attacks.

Leviathan Axe 2-handed strike is 5d10+13 plus 5d10 cold so 68, 88 while raging. I probably should have the Elemental Attack as a Cost 4 Legendary Action, not cost 3.
So are you including LA damage in your CR calculations now or not. Your answer didn't clarify that for me. I wasn't asking about how to calculate the damage, just if you factor it into your CR calculation or not.
Thanks for the lengthy feedback buddy. Very helpful.
Your welcome. Anything I can do to get this project finished and out on the streets quicker!
 

Happy to help (and not work!)

I appreciate it amigo!

That is a cool idea and should be really fun. I look forward to learning more. Part of me wishes I did something like this with my "Immortals" guide, but I'm going a different direction.

I think breaking the stat limit would only lead to problems, so 30 is my limit albeit I have three prefixed mods to spice things up a bit.

That is what I guess. not my preference, but I understand the desire to cram more into less space.

Unless its a big centre-piece monster (with double page art*) I try and keep the monsters to 1 page and for the most part it works okay.

*About 20 double page art pieces in the book.

Ok, should that be reflected in the statblock? "Deity Resistances" or something?

At the start of the Monster Manual they go into different features,that are not explicitly laid out in each and every stat-block. I just take the brevity up another notch.

Remember Epic* Gaming is ALREADY more stat-heavy than regular games so one of my main goals is to get things as concise as possible. There are no stat-blocks that cover more than one page - some cover 2 columns, but never 2 pages. DMs should have all the relevant info in front of them - that doesn't mean we need repeated power explanations or full spell lists or every part of your class levels explained - just the main stuff.

*and Immortal

Are you limiting gods to their classes or portfolios? I just generally give deities truesight as a general rule, but everyone has different ideas of what a deity is

Its a slightly different set-up to my 3.5E rules. The number of powers you get per Template is reduced and many (but not all) of the divine powers are part of specific Portfolios. You can take a different Portfolio each time you take a power (if you want) but each Portfolio comes with a drawback (ie. take the Fire Portfolio and Cold Damage is maximized against you and you can't reduce that effect by any means).

*Not opposed

That is my point. The way it reads now (based on 5e standards) is:
3 attacks from Multiattack
+1 attack from God of War
+1 Frenzy
+ Legendary Actions

Yes needs some tweaking.

In 5e, when a trait modifies an action, and the modification is included in that action, it is notes as "included in the attack.:
View attachment 266202
And generally extra actions are just including multiattack, no reason needed.

Yes I was going to add in "included in the attack" and I think I ultimately it was either it or the bounce impact and I omitted the former.

I think that is a good idea - see snip above with...
View attachment 266203

Not that you have to follow this format, but it can be an issue for DMs who are coming from an 8 year old standard.

On the above "Melee Weapon Attack" is padding. "reach 5" is padding. "one target" is padding - always assume 1 target unless it isn't. "Slashing damage" is obvious (its a sword). You can cut that text in half.

Greatsword +15 to hit, 22 (4d6+8) damage
plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage

Wow, OK I didn't understand that (pretty awesome by the way).

You would still miss on a 1. :giggle:

I think a rephrasing might help.

Possibly. Again, its all explained better in the book. It will be like Legendary Actions, once you know how it works you don't need 4 lines in every stat block re-explaining it. Obviously on this one off stat-block it needs a bit more explanation.

OK, I guess it comes from perhaps rely on knowledge or PC classes. I can't speak for all DMs but I don't carry around a boatload of PC class knowledge. I only know what my current PCs can do (we don't have a barbarian). So I think relying to much on that assumed knowledge could be a problem. IMO, it is better to make a monster statblock and not worry to much about following a class paradigm.

Usually do, but ascended PCs/NPCs (like Kratos) are extensions of their Class Levels in many ways.

So are you including LA damage in your CR calculations now or not. Your answer didn't clarify that for me. I wasn't asking about how to calculate the damage, just if you factor it into your CR calculation or not.

I don't factor it, I just have my own method of balancing the power of Legendary Actions.

However PC/NPC immortals are sort of built differently from monsters in that I do their attacks then add the multiplier, whereas monsters get (something close to) the average DPR and then their attacks are reverse engineered from that.

Your welcome. Anything I can do to get this project finished and out on the streets quicker!

Its gonna be 500+ pages - I think I need to break it into 2 books. I haven't worked it out but the artwork alone must be something like 200 pages...wait til you see this art buddy, its crazy. I have one piece in particular we are working on over the next few days I think you specifically will love. ;-)
 


Hey there Haplo781! :)

False premise. Kratos is clearly a 4e character.

You could argue most videogame characters mesh better with the more mechanically-minded 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons ruleset. It is more of a challenge trying to replicate these 'super-heroic' icons in 5E, but that's all part of the fun.
 

He seems about the correct power level for a CR 32 monster, but I would prefer to deities to use the Mythic Trait to be even sturdier.

Forgot to answer this previously.

All immortals get a Mythic Form (including Kratos); but this only manifests on their Home Plane, hence I didn't include it for Kratos since he doesn't seem to have a Divine Realm of his own, he's more of a wanderer. I suppose the only alt. form Kratos has shown was when he grew massive fighting Ares in the first game (although IIRC that was him tapping the power of Pandora's Box).
 

Stalker0

Legend
To me the real power of this build is the Axe throw. I can throw an axe and petrify a target with a DC 27 con save, then either just kill him with crits, or use my finishing blow and autokill them. So you can very easily take out CR 20-25s in 1 round unless they have petrify immunity (which many things do not). That's pretty damn epic.

How does it work with the recall, does the person the axe is embedded in take the 1 handed axe attack when you recall the axe?
 


Hey there Stalker0! :)

To me the real power of this build is the Axe throw. I can throw an axe and petrify a target with a DC 27 con save, then either just kill him with crits, or use my finishing blow and autokill them. So you can very easily take out CR 20-25s in 1 round unless they have petrify immunity (which many things do not). That's pretty damn epic.

Well remember that Legendary Resistance would give a monster (or deity) immunity from this (until they depleted their uses of Legendary Resistance.

How does it work with the recall, does the person the axe is embedded in take the 1 handed axe attack when you recall the axe?

Not exactly.

In the game (from which this is based) 3 possibilities occur.

1. Kratos throws the axe (1 handed), it hits the target (dealing damage) then returns to Kratos hand potentially hitting other targets between the original target and Kratos (the axe deviates up to 20% left or right on the returning arc to hit possible targets). If no one is between Kratos and the target, the axe just returns without costing another attack.

2. Kratos throws the axe (1 handed) using it to trip an opponent, the axe carries on past that tripped opponent some distance and then comes back to Kratos. Again, potentially arc'ing 20% to hit targets on the returning arc.

3. Kratos throws the axe (2 handed), it embeds in an opponent and stays there, freezing them as long as the axe stays embedded. Kratos can recall the axe at any time (counting as an attack).

I didn't really have enough space on the page to go into minute detail, but it should work as above (as best as I can figure it).
 

Hello there Weiley31! :)

Damn: Don't let Kratos score a Crit while he has 4 uses of Legendary Actions available.
I don't mean this as a negative. More of a "your gonna have a baaaaad day once he crits on ya."

Haha! Yes indeed. He is a god of strength (and war) so he just rips enemies apart.

I think I was in error for the Elemental Wrath though - it should be - Legendary Action Cost = Spell Level (ie. 1-5).

As regards Kratos CR 32, that means (unless your players want to get crushed) he is probably not a suitable opponent for a PCs less than CR 20 (Quasi-deity Rank). NB. Epic Tier PCs are individually CR 12 (four epic tier PCs are collectively CR 24*)

*when we convert PCs to CR to make balancing the Encounters quick and simple. I believe I have managed to get Challenge Rating functional again at high/epic/immortal level.
 

Quartz

Hero
A modest suggestion: for Legendary Strength, just say that Kratos automatically succeeds on any Strength check, no matter what is tried.

You might limit automatic success to non-divine opponents and obstacles and give him advantage against divine ones. This avoids the problem of saying it's +100 Str when he meets someone with +110 Str. This plays off the maxim that you only get to roll if the result is in doubt. Against non-divine opponents and obstacles the result isn't in doubt so no roll is necessary.
 

Hey there Quartz! :)

A modest suggestion: for Legendary Strength, just say that Kratos automatically succeeds on any Strength check, no matter what is tried.

I have been wondering about the wording revolving around the Legendary [Ability Score] powers.

Legendary Strength is not the top end of where this all goes, there is also Transcendental Strength and Omnipotence (aka Omnific Strength).

My thoughts on Legendary Strength are that it would allow you to lift anything 'ON' the planet, but it wouldn't allow you to juggle moons or whatever. So although Legendary Strength allows you to seemingly do the impossible, it does have an eventual limit - albeit one you are likely not going to reach until you get to the crazy beyond immortal tiers of play.

You might limit automatic success to non-divine opponents and obstacles and give him advantage against divine ones.

Absolutely. Certainly he wins against anyone without Legendary Strength (or better) themselves.

This avoids the problem of saying it's +100 Str when he meets someone with +110 Str.

Hypothetically Kratos could meet someone with Transcendental Strength, in which instance his own strength would be ant-like in comparison, but you don't encounter those beings until you hit the 6th dimension (that place would be a bit too dangerous for Kratos).

This plays off the maxim that you only get to roll if the result is in doubt. Against non-divine opponents and obstacles the result isn't in doubt so no roll is necessary.

The whole reason I chose +100 in the first place was to try and maintain the balance.

Initially my plan was that a blow using Legendary Strength would flat out drop a target to 0 hit points if they failed a save (DC 30), save for damage equal to their bloodied value. Gods & (Legendary) Monsters could use Legendary Resistance to avoid this. In this instance you could not use Legendary Strength more than once per turn.

It may be my initial plan was stronger (no pun intended).

As an aside, the earliest you can get any Legendary Ability Score is CR 28 (Lesser God or above) and such beings would be notably beyond epic tier parties in terms of threats and yes I know official monsters of CR 28, 29, 30 exist and they get REKT by epic parties all the time, but those ain't my CR 28 monsters. As far as I can discern, all official monsters of around CR 15 or more would be better off having their CR's dropped by about 20%, or their stat blocks reworked to make them CR compliant to the Dungeon Masters Guide's rules for HP/DPR by CR.
 

Quartz

Hero
Legendary Strength is not the top end of where this all goes, there is also Transcendental Strength and Omnipotence (aka Omnific Strength).

Ah right, I'd forgotten about that sort of thing. I'll have to go read up on it. But the idea was to do away with extra numbers. So you might say that 5 / day (or whatever) Kratos can empower his Strength to the Legendary tier, then define the Legendary tier and what it can do elsewhere. Thus someone with a Str of 10 which has the permanent Legendary quality would be stronger than unempowered Kratos' Str of 30, but not when Kratos uses his Legendary Strength, and someone with a Transcendental Str of 10 would be stronger regardless. And you mechanic that through 'only roll when the result is in doubt' or Advantage / Disadvantage as appropriate.
 

Hey Quartz,

Ah right, I'd forgotten about that sort of thing. I'll have to go read up on it.

Well I haven't finished writing the book yet (still a few months out). Hence why this sort of feedback is much appreciated.

But the idea was to do away with extra numbers. So you might say that 5 / day (or whatever) Kratos can empower his Strength to the Legendary tier, then define the Legendary tier and what it can do elsewhere.

Certainly I have a page in the book describing the various Legendary Ability Scores. Naturally I can't (and won't) explain every rule again in each stat-block, that would be far too pedantic. But for a one off build (like this Kratos example) I needed to cram in a bit more explanation otherwise it wouldn't make sense to people here.

Definitely one of my big goals is to make Epic and Immortal Tier gaming as simple and approachable as possible. A big part of that is dialing back on the math where I can but still dialing up on the craziness.

Thus someone with a Str of 10 which has the permanent Legendary quality would be stronger than unempowered Kratos' Str of 30, but not when Kratos uses his Legendary Strength, and someone with a Transcendental Str of 10 would be stronger regardless. And you mechanic that through 'only roll when the result is in doubt' or Advantage / Disadvantage as appropriate.

As of right now, the current build is that the prerequisites for Legendary Strength (or any Legendary Ability Score) are:

1. At least Divine Rank 4 (ie. Lesser God), CR 28 or better for monsters.
2. A score of 30 in the Ability Score you want to become Legendary.
 

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