Kytons, Chain Control and Attacks.

[Joyce Jun'r]

Hullo,

In an upcoming session, my players are going to toe-to-toe with a chain devil (kyton). I'm unfortunately a tad confused about the number of attacks the creature gets, however.

The entry in the MM says that kytons can make a chain attack as a standard action, or two chain attacks as a full action. However, one of the kyton's abilities is to try control up to 4 chains within 20 feet of itself as a standard action, and the entry goes on to say that these chains are treated as the kyton's own for purposes of attacks, damage, and the like.

So, how exactly does that work? Does it mean the kyton uses a standard action, takes control of, say, 4 chains, and then on its next turn can attack with all 4? Or does it mean that, instead of attacking with its own chains, a kyton can use chains located within 20 feet of itself to attack its enemies, but can only attack once (or twice, if it's using a full action) per round?

If anyone could break down how this power works, that'd be great. I'm inclined to think that the kyton cannot use the chains it controls through its ability to provide itself with extra attacks every turn, because then it's CR would probably be higher, but I just want to be sure so that the players don't just cleave through it without me maximizing its potential.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the kyton is surrounded by at least two chains, it allows behooves him to use dancing chains because he can do so as a single standard action. I believe you are reading it correctly, but perhaps confusing the Dancing Chains ability with the chains on its body. Dancing Chains does not use the chains on its body (necessarily).

So, assume that the kyton is in its lair surrounding by tens if not hundreds of chains. When the PCs enter, it should use Dancing Chains to activate four of them, probably extended out to 15ft, and attack immediately with all four. With the extension, it basically gives the kyton the ability to control a chain up to 20ft away and attack a creature 35ft away. If an opponent has a chain (a spiked chain preferably), the kyton would try to control that one as one of its four chains (chains not in possession do not get a save). Each of the fours chains attacks at +10 to hit and do 2d4+2/19-20 damage. If it doesn't use Dancing Chains (likely due to either an anti-magic field or to poor planning on the kyton's part), then it gets one or two attacks (SA or full attack action), as normal.

 

[MichaelH]

Hullo,

In an upcoming session, my players are going to toe-to-toe with a chain devil (kyton). I'm unfortunately a tad confused about the number of attacks the creature gets, however.

As will my players. The kyton they will face will also have 8 rogue levels.

The entry in the MM says that kytons can make a chain attack as a standard action, or two chain attacks as a full action.

Correct, these are the kyton's main personal melee attacks.

However, one of the kyton's abilities is to try control up to 4 chains within 20 feet of itself as a standard action, and the entry goes on to say that these chains are treated as the kyton's own for purposes of attacks, damage, and the like.

So, how exactly does that work? Does it mean the kyton uses a standard action, takes control of, say, 4 chains, and then on its next turn can attack with all 4?

Actually the kyton takes control of up to 4 chains within range and attacks with all 4 with the same attack bonus and damage as his own chains. He does not have to wait a round before using them to attack. This is a standard action for the kyton.

Or does it mean that, instead of attacking with its own chains, a kyton can use chains located within 20 feet of itself to attack its enemies, but can only attack once (or twice, if it's using a full action) per round?

Using this ability is a standard action for the kyton, so he cannot make his 4 chain attacks and then use his own chain attacks, too. If there are chains in the area he would use his special ability to control them and make 4 attacks instead of his usual 1 or 2.

To sumarize, the kyton will either use a standard action or full attack with his own chains, getting 1 or 2 attacks. Or he will use a standard action for his dancing chains ability to control up to 4 chains within range that attack with the same attack roll and damage as the kyton's own chain attacks.

 

[Joyce Jun'r]

Ah! Excellent! Thank you to both of those who replied; you definitely cleared things up for me.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

I've got a related question that I was about to post. My players will soon be facing multiple kytons in their lair with lots and lots of chains. It is likely that the some kytons will want to try to use the dancing chains to grapple and immobilize the PCs, while other kytons use their chains to beat up the immobilized PCs.

Any advice (both RAW and what the rule "ought" to be) on adjudicating this would be appreciated. For example:
1. Can the chains make a grapple attack under the dancing chain ability rules?
2. Should the chains provoke an AoO when starting the grapple?
3. Can the PC use the AoO to sunder the chains?
4. Any modifications to standard grapple rules that should be made for this situation?

-RedShirt

 

[MichaelH]

Giving the kytons the ability to grapple with their dancing chains certainly ups their CR and the EL of your encounter. You may want to have the kytons use trip and disarm attacks with some of the chains, seeing they get a +2 to both of those maneuvers. Once the target is tripped and prone, you can beat up on him and get an AoO when he gets back up. Then do it again.

Disarm anyone that inflicts large amounts of damage. Then trip him.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

You may want to have the kytons use trip and disarm attacks with some of the chains, seeing they get a +2 to both of those maneuvers. Disarm anyone that inflicts large amounts of damage. Then trip him.

Actually, I think that raises some of the same issues. Typically trip and disarm attacks provoke attacks of opportunity. Do the dancing chains provoke an AoO when commanded to trip or disarm? This seems similar to the "do you get an AoO against a creature with natural weapons and reach that tries to trip/disarm/grapple you?" debate.

Can the dancing chains take AoO? On that one I'd assume not.

-RedShirt

 

[MichaelH]

Actually, I think that raises some of the same issues. Typically trip and disarm attacks provoke attacks of opportunity. Do the dancing chains provoke an AoO when commanded to trip or disarm?

No AoO against the dancing chains.

Can the dancing chains take AoO? On that one I'd assume not.

Good question. I don't think so either.