L&L 5/21 - Hit Points, Our Old Friend

[Guest 85555]

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Barring something unforeseen, and just taking the hit into account, that's exactly what would happen.

And that I would call a critical hit.

Lasting damage is a quite different thing. And that is something D&D definitely does not model well, at all.

I agree and felt the post was reasonable. d&d doesn't really handle this stuff. And when it tries (i am looking at you 2E KO chart) it gets weird.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's just a very skillful or powerful blow.

As opposed to all the other rolls that were hits but not crits? Those were sloppy and weak? Even a non-crit that deals 3 damage when the fighter is at 2 hp is apparently strong enough to kill a fighter.

Nah, rolling a natural 20 should be a WOO-HOO moment, not a moment where the result is: "Your enemy is badly scratched by your amazing attack."

It's an easy enough problem to solve (especially with modules), but a crit really needs to be something that creates some substantial injury on your enemy, or else it's YAWN.

(While we're at it, we should ditch 4e-style "crits are max damage," since that's a big yawn, too)

 

[john112364]

I agree and felt the post was reasonable. d&d doesn't really handle this stuff. And when it tries (i am looking at you 2E KO chart) it gets weird.

Lmao. I had forgotten all about that insane chart. I remember the first time i saw it my reaction was WTF!? Then I proceeded to ignore it and bury the memory deep in my brain.

Everyone should keep in mind that DnD has always had abstract hp and that shouldn't change.

But that doesn't mean that an alternate module can't be introduced later on. I'm thinking Star Wars (d20 version) with their wound points and vitality points (as an example). It wouldn't be difficult to introduce later and making it core instead of abstract hp would cause nerd rage on an epic scale.

 

[Sunseeker]

As opposed to all the other rolls that were hits but not crits? Those were sloppy and weak? Even a non-crit that deals 3 damage when the fighter is at 2 hp is apparently strong enough to kill a fighter.

Nah, rolling a natural 20 should be a WOO-HOO moment, not a moment where the result is: "Your enemy is badly scratched by your amazing attack."

It's an easy enough problem to solve (especially with modules), but a crit really needs to be something that creates some substantial injury on your enemy, or else it's YAWN.

(While we're at it, we should ditch 4e-style "crits are max damage," since that's a big yawn, too)

Well, at high levels where your example is meaningful, what is a crit with a longsword against a dragon anyway? Running the length of the blade through his foot maybe? I mean you're trying to hit a 60ft-long magical monster with a 3-foot long metal stick.

Sure, when you crit on a goblin you're going to impale the little bugger, lift him off the ground while he's still on your blade, and then pitch the poor thing half-way across the room, or wipe him around on the floor like a mop.

A 5% base chance to crit really isn't that far out there. If we were rolling D% and we had to get 100, now that's a good reason for your longsword to fly from your hands and run itsself headlong through that one soft spot in the dragon, fragment on a rib and explode into metal shrapnel in it's body, instantly killing the dragon.

And critting gets even more meaningless when(using Pathfinder here) a Fighter can crit on a 10 or less.

One thing I feel that 4e did right was that instead of scaling the melee's attack bonus, they scaled the melee's damage. This can easily be accomplished without powers using the same system 3.X used for BAB. Every 4, 5, 6 or whatever increment levels, give every attack made by a guy with a sword do more damage. This makes crits at higher levels more meaningful. When I crit with 1d8+3 str, big deal. When I crit and my attack does 5d8+3str, that's a big deal!

 

[john112364]

As opposed to all the other rolls that were hits but not crits? Those were sloppy and weak? Even a non-crit that deals 3 damage when the fighter is at 2 hp is apparently strong enough to kill a fighter.

Nah, rolling a natural 20 should be a WOO-HOO moment, not a moment where the result is: "Your enemy is badly scratched by your amazing attack."

It's an easy enough problem to solve (especially with modules), but a crit really needs to be something that creates some substantial injury on your enemy, or else it's YAWN.

(While we're at it, we should ditch 4e-style "crits are max damage," since that's a big yawn, too)

Personally I don't see why we couldn't introduce a mechanic where the victim of a crit is dazed or some such effect.

And I agree with the "Crits are max damage" yawner. I would prefer you normal damage get maxed plus another die roll of that type. (For instance a 1d8 weapons does 8 hp plus 1d8. And you're dazed.)

 

[Viking Bastard]

As opposed to all the other rolls that were hits but not crits? Those were sloppy and weak? Even a non-crit that deals 3 damage when the fighter is at 2 hp is apparently strong enough to kill a fighter.

Nah, rolling a natural 20 should be a WOO-HOO moment, not a moment where the result is: "Your enemy is badly scratched by your amazing attack."

It's an easy enough problem to solve (especially with modules), but a crit really needs to be something that creates some substantial injury on your enemy, or else it's YAWN.

(While we're at it, we should ditch 4e-style "crits are max damage," since that's a big yawn, too)

Meh.

I love colorful crits (and fumbles!), but mechanically it should be super-simple. Max-damage is fine. Then give some examples of adding in color on a case-by-case basis, depending on the narrative.

(Of course, obligatory "solve it with Modular Magic", yaddayadda.)

 

[Guest 85555]

Lmao. I had forgotten all about that insane chart. I remember the first time i saw it my reaction was WTF!? Then I proceeded to ignore it and bury the memory deep in my brain.

The chart was rooted in a good idea (modeling getting knocked out in a fist fight). Having a small chance of getting knocked out by a punch makes a certain amount of sense, until you ask why a mace to the head doesn't also have that chance (or even a bladed weapon).

Everyone should keep in mind that DnD has always had abstract hp and that shouldn't change.

But that doesn't mean that an alternate module can't be introduced later on. I'm thinking Star Wars (d20 version) with their wound points and vitality points (as an example). It wouldn't be difficult to introduce later and making it core instead of abstract hp would cause nerd rage on an epic scale.

Yeah, adding it after the fact as a module is better IMO becuase it should satisfy both sides of the debate. Star Wars is an excellent example. I wasn't a big fan of adding the wounds into the d20 system. I think you are better off sticking with straight hp or shifting to a more standard wound system. For me classic HP work best for D&D.

 

[technoextreme]

The chances of him going into a monthlong coma though from a single blow by mr. Stallone, is very, very slim.

You are in the same boat that he is in terms of ignorance. I'm talking about concussions. Seriously, how could you not know about that one when it was the plot line to a Rocky movie and has been all over the news.

One knock out punch and he would probably be up and about (seemingly okay) within 1-10 minutes (really most knock outs tend to be under a minute).

I've knocked myself out before in the most direct manner possible. You won't be ok.

 

[Guest 85555]

Who said anything about comas? I'm talking about concussions. Seriously, how could you not know about that one when it was the plot line to a Rocky movie and has been all over the news. Unless you have been living in an underground cave without television you would have at least known about that one.

I mentioned concussions in my post, and explained how they can last a month. His point and mine is d&d doesn't deal very well with concussions.

I have had several concussions myself and symptoms vary widely depending on severity and (i believe) the location.

 

[CleverNickName]

Are you dumb? Are you ing insane!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds anyone who knows how medicine works? One solid hit in the right spot from a professional boxer and you are out for monthes on end with the distinct possibility of long lasting damage and cognitive problems. Though thank you for providing the perfect example of why trying to tie in hit points with physical damage is still an abstraction the likes of which is still idiotic and stupid on the level that most people tend to complain about 4th edition.

No it definately does happen. In fact I think I've seen it happen double digit times. I've also seen the three saves or die happen too.

You really need to switch to decaf, bro. And you need to ease up on the name-calling.

Some of us have studied medicine at a collegiate level (some of us happen to be working on our residencies, even), and we still don't like the way healing works in 4th Edition.