D&D 5E L&L - D&D Next Goals, Part One

[ForeverSlayer]

When I read this article, I see "fewer and fewer players were moving deeper into additional material such as the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual", "early 1980s", "not just a sampler or a game that guides you through making a character and playing a single adventure" and "will easily find other products to migrate to if you so desire", and see Mearls saying they are going back to a D&D/AD&D split. Which is not to say they are going to create competing lines with different names. But it sounds to me like he's saying they are going to have a core game that is essentially like B/X (early 1980s!), and then "advanced" options in the Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, and Monster Manual. Players can go for the whole hawg of modules and optional systems, or they can stay with a simple, minimalist core game, and both will be supported with largely compatible adventures. The core game will be perfectly playable in and of itself, but will also act as a feeder system to the other products.

It's a model that worked pretty well for TSR back in the day.

What they are proposing isn't new at all, in fact, it never skipped an edition. If you wanted to keep it simple, you just used the core three and you were good. All editions were simplified, it was adding additional material that could make it complex. They don't really need to waste time creating a separate product that does this.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Well, if that's going to be your complaint once again, ForeverSlayer-- that it's the 4E game that was the problem... then why did you complain about the Red Box itself (the "book layout")?

If it was the game that was the issue... then so long as the new game is different, it shouldn't matter how it gets presented (Red Box or not). Or are you just looking to complain about anything that was ever connected to 4E?

Because it was terrible to be honest. I know tons of people who bought into it because of the old style box and were terribly disappointed with the final product. Also, I saw lots of them on store shelves that never sold.

The problem isn't Players Handbook, DMs Guide and Monster Manual, it's a product that people simply don't like. Stop dodging the poo on the floor and lighting candles to hide the smell, just clean it up.

 

[Sunseeker]

Probably 4 races, 4 classes, 10 levels. Likely skills, maybe feats.

That sounds less like a

You can buy D&D and play a full, tabletop RPG campaign.

And more like a

It will be the game, Dungeons & Dragons, not just a sampler or a game that guides you through making a character and playing a single adventure.

 

[am181d]

[MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION]: If you follow what WotC has been saying, most people don't play higher than 10th level. If you have four classes and four races over 10 levels, that's enough to support a LOT of casual gameplay. It's only the hardcore gamer who's going to be demanding the gnome and the bard and Limited Wish.

 

[Sunseeker]

@shidaku : If you follow what WotC has been saying, most people don't play higher than 10th level. If you have four classes and four races over 10 levels, that's enough to support a LOT of casual gameplay. It's only the hardcore gamer who's going to be demanding the gnome and the bard and Limited Wish.

Even of the low-level games I've played, you don't have to be hardcore to want to play a game that isn't die-cast from LOTR.

I mean really is that all we want from DDN? Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings; Fighters, Rogues, Clerics and Wizards; 10 levels; some orcs and goblins?

We aren't interested in this diverse, creative, entertaining product that has created amazing fantasy worlds with much more than LOTR tropes? We aren't interested in gnomes or bards anymore? I didn't realize that mystical musicians were such an outlandish fantasy concept! You'll have to pardon my flabberghastedness here, but really? That's IT?

I don't know...but maybe we should address why players have traditionally not played higher-level games rather than simply seek to dump them?

 

[Stormonu]

I mean really is that all we want from DDN? Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings; Fighters, Rogues, Clerics and Wizards; 10 levels; some orcs and goblins?

We aren't interested in this diverse, creative, entertaining product that has created amazing fantasy worlds with much more than LOTR tropes? We aren't interested in gnomes or bards anymore? I didn't realize that mystical musicians were such an outlandish fantasy concept! You'll have to pardon my flabberghastedness here, but really? That's IT?

Hey, it worked for B/X and BECM for about ten years.

And it IS a guess at this time. For all we know, with the base game we *might* have have AD&D's line-up (wasn't one of their previous goals having 'all PHB races/classes available from the beginning?)

 

[MortalPlague]

So the core of the game will be less complex than currently seen?

Of course it will. They want a core of the game that's easy enough for someone who's never played an RPG before to read and figure out. The simple core isn't for us.

WotC estimate that there are maybe 6 million active gamers, and some 20 million people who have ever played D&D. How many days do Walmart take to serve that many people? Is it as much as one week?

That's why they're always interested in going for non-hobbyists - we're a drop in the ocean, at best.

Sure. Bringing new gamers into the fold is a big deal for WotC. As it should be. Making the basic core of the game easy enough for someone to pick up and learn is a great idea. It's how I learned.

What they are proposing isn't new at all, in fact, it never skipped an edition. If you wanted to keep it simple, you just used the core three and you were good. All editions were simplified, it was adding additional material that could make it complex. They don't really need to waste time creating a separate product that does this.

Simplified, sure. But not 'pick up off the shelf and learn' simple. The simple core of the game has to be the foundation for everything else. Most games will be played a few levels of complexity layered on, like the playtest packets we're seeing currently.

@shidaku: If you follow what WotC has been saying, most people don't play higher than 10th level. If you have four classes and four races over 10 levels, that's enough to support a LOT of casual gameplay. It's only the hardcore gamer who's going to be demanding the gnome and the bard and Limited Wish.

Exactly.

Even of the low-level games I've played, you don't have to be hardcore to want to play a game that isn't die-cast from LOTR.

I mean really is that all we want from DDN? Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings; Fighters, Rogues, Clerics and Wizards; 10 levels; some orcs and goblins?

We aren't interested in this diverse, creative, entertaining product that has created amazing fantasy worlds with much more than LOTR tropes? We aren't interested in gnomes or bards anymore? I didn't realize that mystical musicians were such an outlandish fantasy concept! You'll have to pardon my flabberghastedness here, but really? That's IT?

I don't know...but maybe we should address why players have traditionally not played higher-level games rather than simply seek to dump them?

There's nothing wrong with gnomes and bards. A wide scope of options and possibilities is a good thing. But not in the simple game. You want a product which can inspire people to play D&D. Not just the first three levels, not just the included adventure, but to make their own and actually play. If you include every option in the game in that box, you risk scaring people away with the sheer scale​ of it.

We aren't the target audience for the simple core of the game. The target audience is the kid who just finished reading Lord of the Rings and wants more. If he gets his friends together and they try out 'this new game', who cares if they're playing a Lord of the Rings clone? They can move on to more inspired and creative things later. So long as they have fun at the table, they'll be hooked.

 

[Quickleaf]

I tend to agree with [MENTION=16760]The Shadow[/MENTION] - the vague goals and promises remind me of a political campaign.

We need to reverse that trend and make a version of D&D that new players can pick up with ease and that existing players can continue to play by utilizing a wealth of world-class adventure content.

I think Mike's heart is in the right place, but when has Wizards of the Coast EVER produced "world-class adventure content"? Maybe Red Hand of Doom came close? But that's all I can think of. Like others have said, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Stormonu]

I think Mike's heart is in the right place, but when has Wizards of the Coast EVER produced "world-class adventure content"?

When Paizo was printing Dungeon? (bad-da bum)

Kidding aside, there's been a few good ones - people often forget Dungeon magazine took over as the primary dispensary for adventures for the longest time in place of stand-alone modules. 3.0 D&D had 5(?) stand alone adventure, but was printing 2-3 adventures per month via Dungeon. For some reason, they just never got the press of the ol' 1E adventures. Once Dungeon mag came out, the era of "classic adventures" pretty much ended, partly due to the volume of disparate adventures (i.e., back in 1980, there were maybe 12 adventures total for the D&D line. By count of my D&D database, which has up to Dungeon 99, there was 1090 adventures for D&D)

 

[Remathilis]

The split can work, WotC need only put its head into it.

The Rules Cyclopedia supported 9 classes (Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Magic-user, Druid, Mystic (monk), Elf, Dwarf, Halfling) up to 36th level, had monsters, spells, magic items, proficiencies, weapon mastery, combat, siege/mass combat, dominions, DM advice, a mini gazetteer to Mystara, alternate rules, and a photocopyable character sheet in 304 pages for $25.

A new Red Box would have the core four classes and races, skills and feats, monsters, a DM guide, and a set of dice. It would be everything you need to play that game with those options. Then you add an Expert Box with has additional races, classes, monsters, spells, and rules. You could keep going, or add new material via adventures, DDi, or even hardback books.