D&D 5E L&L D&D Next Goals, Part Two

It hasn't really been mentioned yet, but I love the fact that they want to include a Temple of Elemental Evil type adventure in this Basic Set. For those who don't know, ToEE was a supermodule expanded from T1 Village of Hommlet. It included large dungeons, and the whole thing took players from level 1 to level 8.

I'm very excited by what Mearls suggests here. You have simple retroclone of B/X that goes from level 1 to level 10. That's a game that veteran fans of B/X and BECMI can take and extrapolate to all sorts of fun. At the same time, it comes with fantastically simple buy-in; the game offers the same simplicity as Moldvay's basic but provides even more than just 3 levels, and for that casual gamer who loves boardgames and even RPGs but really isn't into world-building, it comes with a huge dungeoncrawl they can get hours upon hours of gaming out of.
 

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I like what I read. If they can deliver on what he said, I'll definitely have to check out 5E (I'm done with the playtests though). There's a few things I can see myself quickly going past (some sort of skill system has become vital to RPGing for me, for example). Doing a decent dungeon in 2-3 hours means I might even be able to bring it over for board game night.

Personally, I've grown sick of combat, combat, combat in RPGs/tabletops. After all, video games do that a whole hell of a lot faster and I can also go play the D&D board games, Descent or Heroquest if I'm after that kind of kick. I'm more interested in the interaction and exploration of the game.
 

What's appropriate for one table isn't going to be universal, so the game needs to be able to flex on that metric. What makes a fight quality at one table makes it horrible at another, so the game needs to flex on that metric, too.

Such a simple thing to say, yet so true :)

Flexibility is paramount for D&D. And that's not just because of the need to attract more casual gamers. It is also because ALL gamers have their pet peeves and preferences about everything in the game. This in the past has been traditionally taken care with house rules, and there will certainly be a lot of them anyway across the tables. But an edition that starts off from the idea of being flexible by already providing variations and complexity dials since the start, is likely going to provide a better ground for everyone.
 

It hasn't really been mentioned yet, but I love the fact that they want to include a Temple of Elemental Evil type adventure in this Basic Set. For those who don't know, ToEE was a supermodule expanded from T1 Village of Hommlet. It included large dungeons, and the whole thing took players from level 1 to level 8.

I'm very excited by what Mearls suggests here. You have simple retroclone of B/X that goes from level 1 to level 10. That's a game that veteran fans of B/X and BECMI can take and extrapolate to all sorts of fun. At the same time, it comes with fantastically simple buy-in; the game offers the same simplicity as Moldvay's basic but provides even more than just 3 levels, and for that casual gamer who loves boardgames and even RPGs but really isn't into world-building, it comes with a huge dungeoncrawl they can get hours upon hours of gaming out of.

As long as it'll allow something like this, I'll be happy!
 

I don't mind the whole modular direction they're taking, but some of the things Mearls said have me a bit concerned.

He mentioned that you can roll for ability scores or use an array chosen for you by your class. But what about a point buy option? Or what if I want to choose an array that's NOT cookie cutter for my class? These things would hardly take up much word count and I can't fathom why they wouldn't want to include them.

He really makes it sound like the core rulebook is going to be a 1970s retroclone with nothing but a very basic fighter, cleric, rogue and wizard as options for play, and not even a basic skill system. Seriously? I don't mind having a modular system that lets people play that kind of game if they want to, but I better not have to buy a bunch of extra books just to be able to have a basic skill system or the ability to customize my character beyond "(race) [class]." I find even the current playtest material far too simple and lacking in character customization options for my taste. If even THAT is too complicated to be included in the core rulebook, Next will definitely not be for me.

He mentions that he'd like to "Simplify combat by removing extraneous options. We have 14 options in the rules now. The basic game needs only attack, cast a spell, disengage, hide, hustle, search, and use an item. I'd like the core rules boiled down to about 16 pages, not counting class-specific material." Are you kidding me? There are too many options? I look at the current playtest and have the exact OPPOSITE reaction. Besides, they are just that - OPTIONS. How does that ruin the grognards' game to have options in it? If they don't want to use them, they don't have to! But to not include them for the rest of us that do want them is just offensive. Next is supposed to be a big tent, a game that caters to all styles of play. But all I see lately is catering to those who want the most minimalist and basic game possible.
 

He really makes it sound like the core rulebook is going to be a 1970s retroclone with nothing but a very basic fighter, cleric, rogue and wizard as options for play, and not even a basic skill system. Seriously? I don't mind having a modular system that lets people play that kind of game if they want to, but I better not have to buy a bunch of extra books just to be able to have a basic skill system or the ability to customize my character beyond "(race) [class]." I find even the current playtest material far too simple and lacking in character customization options for my taste. If even THAT is too complicated to be included in the core rulebook, Next will definitely not be for me.

I know this has been said before, in this thread even, but Mearls is describing the basic version of the game. Remember that "core" has meant something different in pretty much every edition of the game. In D&DN, the basic version is supposed to speak to the simplest style of D&D. If it provided a ton of options, it wouldn't be doing its job.

The standard and advanced versions of the game are supposed to provide the options. If you want a 3e+splat books level of complexity, then the complexity level of D&DN that caters to BECMI-style play (i.e. the basic game) isn't for you. I don't know if the complexity levels discussed over the next couple weeks will be your speed or not, but it's a little silly to write off the game because it also addresses a style you don't really like.

The potential awesomeness of D&DN (and it's just potential right now) is that it will be flexible enough to play in the style we each prefer. But the downside of this is that we all have to be willing to give WotC the flexibility to support a whole bunch of styles that we don't prefer.

-KS
 

I know this has been said before, in this thread even, but Mearls is describing the basic version of the game. Remember that "core" has meant something different in pretty much every edition of the game. In D&DN, the basic version is supposed to speak to the simplest style of D&D. If it provided a ton of options, it wouldn't be doing its job.

That's why they need to clarify some things. Are there going to be separate books for the different complexity levels of play, or will they all be included in the same PHB as options? I really don't want to have to buy several books just to get a game with skills, more than 4 classes, multiclassing, etc., nor do I want to have to search through several books during play to find a particular rule.

I don't know if the complexity levels discussed over the next couple weeks will be your speed or not, but it's a little silly to write off the game because it also addresses a style you don't really like.

You misunderstand me. I have no problem with there being an option to play a basic BECMI-style game for those that want it. I just don't want to have to buy and search through several books to play the kind of game I want to play, which is how Mearls is making it sound. I hope I'm wrong about that.
 

You misunderstand me. I have no problem with there being an option to play a basic BECMI-style game for those that want it. I just don't want to have to buy and search through several books to play the kind of game I want to play, which is how Mearls is making it sound. I hope I'm wrong about that.

While it does sound like everything may not be in the first box/product, its very unclear what will or won't be in the second. It may very well be that the Standard Box/Book has all the rules inclusive of what is in the Base set. (Yet another good reason for the 16 pages thing, IMO.) I would think that would make sense, looking at the intended purpose of the products in question. The Basic Box is for people to pick up and try the game (maybe without investing near $100 first.) Those that like it, and want to join all us "serious" D&D-ers will pick up the Standard Box, as will most of us. The Advanced box will include all the rest of the options, I would guess for those who really want to bash the game around. I really like this idea from the perspective of getting young/new people into the hobby. Especially since they are taking care to avoid having "more advanced" rules re-write what you learned in the earlier steps (although I suspect some of that may happen in the "Advanced" set.


....and I still think "D&D", "Expert D&D", and "Advanced D&D" sound better than Basic, Standard, and Advanced. "Standard", to me, implies that the simple boxed set is somehow sub-standard.
 

He mentioned that you can roll for ability scores or use an array chosen for you by your class. But what about a point buy option? Or what if I want to choose an array that's NOT cookie cutter for my class? These things would hardly take up much word count and I can't fathom why they wouldn't want to include them.

That class-suggested array cannot really be anything than a mere suggestion... it's cookie cutter because a new player won't need to think about it at all, but it will be obvious that you can immediately e.g. swap two of its scores. Or lower a high score, and increase a low score by the same amount. These are the 2 easiest changes that the introductory text can suggest.

I am also quite confident that a point-buy option (with 3 values, as usual) is still in, even tho it's not mentioned in this article.

He really makes it sound like the core rulebook is going to be a 1970s retroclone with nothing but a very basic fighter, cleric, rogue and wizard as options for play, and not even a basic skill system. Seriously? I don't mind having a modular system that lets people play that kind of game if they want to, but I better not have to buy a bunch of extra books just to be able to have a basic skill system or the ability to customize my character beyond "(race) [class]." I find even the current playtest material far too simple and lacking in character customization options for my taste. If even THAT is too complicated to be included in the core rulebook, Next will definitely not be for me.

Mearls still haven't explained if this basic book will be apart from the usual PHB/DMG/MM, or if they are going with a BECMI-style core books system where each core books builds on the previous one. In the first case, you'll probably have no need to buy the basic book and will just buy the 3 cores are usual. In the second case, everybody will have to buy the core books in order.

But overall, I don't expect you will be required to buy more books than in 3ed or 4ed... the amount of pages needed for your gamestyle should be roughly the same as usual! They can only screw this up if they publish different books which partly overlap, i.e. if these books both have reprinted rules but also rules exclusively available to each book, so that we'd have to buy them all but we'd be re-buying some of the same rules again.

I am a bit skeptic about the skills specifically tho. How can you really play a Rogue (which is one of the 4 basic archetypes that will be in the basic game also IIRC) without using skills in your game? Thus how can you delay talking about skills until after the basic product? :/

He mentions that he'd like to "Simplify combat by removing extraneous options. We have 14 options in the rules now. The basic game needs only attack, cast a spell, disengage, hide, hustle, search, and use an item. I'd like the core rules boiled down to about 16 pages, not counting class-specific material." Are you kidding me? There are too many options? I look at the current playtest and have the exact OPPOSITE reaction. Besides, they are just that - OPTIONS. How does that ruin the grognards' game to have options in it? If they don't want to use them, they don't have to! But to not include them for the rest of us that do want them is just offensive. Next is supposed to be a big tent, a game that caters to all styles of play. But all I see lately is catering to those who want the most minimalist and basic game possible.

That's a good purpose, since we're still talking about the BASIC product.

I've playtested the latest package with some newbies, and I can tell you that even those 7 combat actions are more than those really needed.

IMHO all that's really needed is attack, cast a spell, hustle, use an item. In our playtest I told them only about these 4 + also disengage and dodge, but maybe you can also play without them. Do you really need rules for hide and search during combat? NO, not in a basic game.

However, I think I would probably also put all the other current combat actions in the same basic game, but then I'll list them in a second paragraph or sidebar named "advanced actions in combat".

In any case keep in mind the article is about the BASIC product. Grognards are not supposed to own a basic game. Grognards will buy at least the equivalent of the 3e three core books, although they may still want to play a basic game but probably only sometimes.

This series of articles is clearly and explicitly going to address 3 different levels of complexity, and let us know how they are going to support them by publishing format. Maybe next week they'll reveal that the standard game is simply a second core book which builds on top of the first, and then the advanced game is a third core book which builds on the previous two. Of course the first article of the series catered to those who want a minimal game! They others won't stop there, but would it have made more sense to start the article series talking about the 2nd or the 3ed?
 

I really don't want to have to buy several books just to get a game with skills, more than 4 classes, multiclassing, etc., nor do I want to have to search through several books during play to find a particular rule.

That's a totally legitimate concern, and a reason why also I would prefer the 3 core books as usual containing all materials for the 3 complexity elvels, and to keep Basic as a completely separate product.

There is always a downside, in this case some people will complain that when migrating from Basic to full they will have to buy the basic rules again, or that they will have to buy both standard and advanced when they only want up to standard.

If they go with 3 products by tiers, Basic then Standard then Advanced, in this case I'm pretty sure they'll also consider a Rules Cyclopaedia. The downside will be that it won't probably be available on the first year (so you'll buy first the 3 books and THEN also the RC) and that will be a huge book to carry around.
 

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