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D&D 5E L&L: Subclasses

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130429

This seems a bit dubious to me. Does this mean I have to use the complicated rules if I want to be an assassin? What if I want a simple assassin (or necromancer, or samurai...)? To me, this seems to reintroduce the 4e problem of having a whole bunch of super-narrow (sub)classes with very little choice within them. What if I want something in between...?

How do y'all feel?
 
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I'm not sure why some things seem to be alright as subclasses, but not as a background, instead (such as the gladiator). I get certain decisions (like duelist), but some subclass options seem odd.

Overall, I can't really judge it, yet. I've been given a kind of outline, but I can't really decide whether or not I like it. The simple Fighter (warrior?) option doesn't bug me, but I don't hope that certain options are too complex. While I quite like complexity, I know a few players who don't mind having things be pretty simple, and being shoehorned into a complex character if you wanted to be a samurai or something isn't something I'm a fan of.

Overall, all I can really say is "we'll see how it goes." I don't have enough information to really judge it yet (like the new "tremendous" feats we'll have), so all I can do is hope to like it. As always, play what you like :)

EDIT:
Warlord isn't a class, spelled out in specific language. Guess we stick with 4E or check out 13th age or Exalted 3E.
Can't blame you for feeling this way. Pretty sure they said it would be its own class, and I know that 4e not having certain classes at launch was a huge turn-off for me. As always, play what you like :)
 

It's all in the execution, but this sounds pretty good to me. And-- this is just my opinion-- but I think it might be a bit much to ask for every possible expression of a class to have a 'simple' option. Plus, I don't think that he is necessarily saying that all subclasses will be especially complicated as much as pointing out that the subclass system allows the flexibility of having a very simple and less simple sets of options available within the same class. It meets, in hopefully an elegant way, their goal of modularity.

Also, they never promised that every class from previous editions would be available as their own class, but rather that every class would be expressed in some way within the game. They were pretty careful with the language they used. It was pretty obvious that some classes would get subsumed right from the beginning. As it happens I don't particularly care whether I get a distinct class for every case so long as I'm able to create those characters in a satisfying way. I think that the Warlord is a great candidate for this. Though I can certainly understand where others may disagree.

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Warlord isn't a class, spelled out in specific language. Guess we stick with 4E or check out 13th age or Exalted 3E.

I do not under stand the diffence, why is warlord have to be a class?

If I can play out of the box(yea like we get box sets anymore) every concept that would be warlord in 4e, or Martial in 3e, but with fighter why does it matter?
 

I don't know. I don't really see the rules spelled out not through this L&L. I expect subclasses will grow as more material is released. It's unrealistic to expect DDN to hold up to the amount of material provided in 4e or 3.X at it's release. I expect the subclasses to be narrow at first, with limited options providing little more than flavorful restylings of the base class. Over time, these will grow to be so large as to almost be whole classes on their own.
 

The mention of all those subclasses for the fighter, compared to just 3 subclasses for the Rogue makes me think they've only really thought out the fighter the most out of all of them.
 

cross postd from WotC board

Somebody get to the Q&A guys to ask
1) if they plan on letting us mix and match to build our own sub classes...

Well I want my fighter to have X warlord power, and Y &Z Duilist powers along with some basic pluses from warrior, and that will make MY Samari warrior.

2) How far can a sub class change the basic class, ex: could we have an Archivast tradtion for wizard that learns cleric spells instead of wizard ones? or would it have to be a build for cleric? Could we then get a swordmage gish by taking paliden or ranger and swaping the spell list?
 

Well I want my fighter to have X warlord power, and Y &Z Duilist powers along with some basic pluses from warrior, and that will make MY Samari warrior.
Yes! This is basically what I was trying to say with my first post. I liked it when you could choose whatever abilities you wanted, and subclasses were just pre-chosen paths. With this new system, it sounds like that's not possible anymore, since different subclasses can use totally different mechanics.
 

I'm not sure why some things seem to be alright as subclasses, but not as a background, instead (such as the gladiator). I get certain decisions (like duelist), but some subclass options seem odd.

There are a lot of concepts which could be both a class, subclass, background, specialty and even a race.

And in fact there will be some concepts with multiple implementation, so that something will be both a subclass and a specialty, although most likely the core books will have only one implementation per concept (makes more sense to give space to more concepts in the core rather than more versions of the the same concept).

Race, class, subclass, specialty and background represent different things and use different mechanics, and what they each represent depends on such mechanic.

For instance, a "race" is currently a package of static features so it represents what you get at birth and/or during education i.e. culture.

A "background" used to give you skills (which progress with level) and a static trait which is mostly useful during downtime. Therefore it can be used to represent what you are while not adventuring (or before adventuring), what is your role in society. (Backgrounds are changing now, but probably will retain their concept)

A "class" defines what you are during adventuring. A class is a progression of features that get better and better, and in order to get better you need to gain XP, i.e. you need to go adventuring. You can also use it to define what you are while not adventuring, but this is secondary, and always carried some traditional problems doing so (like "why does the academic wizard teaching spells and crafting magic swords in the city tower never gains levels from doing so?").

A "subclass" modifies its base class (although some subclasses are purely additive and could be even applied to a different base class) and therefore serve the purpose of creating variations in the fantasy world but provide a ready "package" that follows a concept, a certain specific type of a character of that class.

A "specialty" currently is just a suggested bunch of feats, which may or may not be available individually (this can be DM's decision, especially when creating specialties to represent prestige classes or paragon paths). As such, a "specialty" is by definition something you can take as much or as little as you want, and you can freely cherrypick from different specialties. There might be some progression, but it's not always going to be the case.

These give plenty of methods to customize your characters, in small and big ways, either using packages or cherrypicking, and in a progressive or static way.

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The only thing which is still left out of the picture is, how do you represent concepts that should only be available at mid or high levels?

Imagine you have an "Order of the Archmages of XYZ", in 3e you would represent that mostly with a prestige class, in 4e with a paragon path... the only way suggested in 5e so far is to make a specialty, because class/subclass/background/race are all choices that start at level 1 with the current rules. You could make a class that can only be taken with multiclassing after a certain level, thus basically re-introducing prestige classes, but at the moment there is no such thing. You cannot make it a subclass of Wizard, unless you mess up a bit and allow to swap a previous subclass through retraining rules.

Right now, the only way to do it would be with a specialty, however it might not be always easy to do so for every concept...
 

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