L4W Discussion Thread III

[Don Incognito]

I have not one, but TWO adventures on the works! One is a sequel to Echoes of O, one is for 1st level characters.

 

[ryryguy]

Hi, I just discovered L4W and made a character hoping to join in. It looks really fun!

I though ask about a few things that came up as I started exploring the L4W wiki and make a character.

1. Making the character's wiki page is not too bad using the templates. However, I found the "Show Math" section to be extremely tedious. Especially so when tweaking the character, and changing a power or weapon choice required essentially double or triple edits.

I am using the DDI character builder, which is of course great at checking the math. Now that the character builder can import a character's "Summary" data, why not just include that for "Show Math"? A character checker can just import it into the builder and compare the generated character sheet with the wiki page summary, equipment list, etc.

2. I am finding it a little bit hard to browse all the setting material on the wiki. There are some links from the character building guidelines (stickied post and wiki page both). So I followed those links, and links from those pages, and so forth. But I felt a bit like I was exploring a cave with a flashlight. there doesn't seem to be (or I couldn't find) a good "map" of the content overall.

For example, The Transitive Isles page seems to be the closest thing to a top-level page for the setting. When I found that it helped a lot, I could read the sub articles that are linked there. But this page isn't called out for newbs in the character creation pages.

I'm not familiar with this particular Wiki software. Maybe there are features I'm missing that would be helpful for browsing. You can browse by category, but most of the L4W pages don't seem to be tagged, except for the character pages. Tags like these would be useful: Setting, Near Land, Far Land, NPC, Organizations, History, Templates.

3. Editing the wiki in general. Are there any rules of thumb about editing the shared material? For example, in my character background I wrote that Arek Steelsheath used a fullblade. Can/should I edit the Five page to say that? I put a hook in my background about a second warforged forge. I saw another PC background had reference to a second forge. Can/should I make a new "Second Forge" stub page, referring to both characters, that could be added to when/if DMs follow up on those hooks? (Seems like it would help if DMs were to try to weave a story across multiple PCs and adventures and DMs!)

I wouldn't want or expect a lot of hard-and-fast rules about editing the wiki. But any sort of unwritten rules or customs? Someone or someplace to "sanity check" any edits? Do the judges generally review edits to the main pages? (At the least, I'd planned to wait until after character approval.)

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I know PHB2 isn't proposed yet, but I don't want to forget about this: the Bard has a lot of abilities that "slide" allies rather than granting them a shift. That technically means the ally gets no input into where or if they move, it's all done by the Bard. A malicious player could use this to slide their "allies" off a cliff or into danger, but also an inexperienced player (or just a stubborn one who disagrees on tactics) could move a character into a position they object to even if it's not obviously a terrible idea.

I think we should add an exception like with the Dark Pact warlock, saying that bards can't slide unwilling allies. (There's a school of thought that "willing" is implied in the definition of "ally", but we should make it explicit.)

 

[JoeNotCharles]

1. Making the character's wiki page is not too bad using the templates. However, I found the "Show Math" section to be extremely tedious. Especially so when tweaking the character, and changing a power or weapon choice required essentially double or triple edits.

I am using the DDI character builder, which is of course great at checking the math. Now that the character builder can import a character's "Summary" data, why not just include that for "Show Math"? A character checker can just import it into the builder and compare the generated character sheet with the wiki page summary, equipment list, etc.

The problem with this is that not all of the character judges have DDI accounts. I have one, but I'm usually not on a Windows computer so I can't run the character builder most of the time.

Personally, I'd have no problem with including a Character Builder attachment instead of the Math section, you should just be aware that it might slow down your acceptance because it means a lot of reviewers would need to skip over your character. (On the other hand, those reviewers who DO have DDI could review your character much faster, so maybe it would balance out.)

2. I am finding it a little bit hard to browse all the setting material on the wiki. There are some links from the character building guidelines (stickied post and wiki page both). So I followed those links, and links from those pages, and so forth. But I felt a bit like I was exploring a cave with a flashlight. there doesn't seem to be (or I couldn't find) a good "map" of the content overall.

For example, The Transitive Isles page seems to be the closest thing to a top-level page for the setting. When I found that it helped a lot, I could read the sub articles that are linked there. But this page isn't called out for newbs in the character creation pages.

I'm not familiar with this particular Wiki software. Maybe there are features I'm missing that would be helpful for browsing. You can browse by category, but most of the L4W pages don't seem to be tagged, except for the character pages. Tags like these would be useful: Setting, Near Land, Far Land, NPC, Organizations, History, Templates.

Yes, the wiki organization should be much improved. The biggest roadblock is that enworld is very overloaded so editing the wiki can be really slow and painful, so I think everybody's who's sat down to reorganize has given up.

BTW, the Transitive Isles page is linked to in the charter thread, under "World Building". Maybe it should be made more prominent, though - it comes after a lot of technical fine print about Dungeon Mastering and experience calculations. I think the Charter should start with an intro to the setting, and then character creation info, instead of rules first.

3. Editing the wiki in general. Are there any rules of thumb about editing the shared material? For example, in my character background I wrote that Arek Steelsheath used a fullblade. Can/should I edit the Five page to say that? I put a hook in my background about a second warforged forge. I saw another PC background had reference to a second forge. Can/should I make a new "Second Forge" stub page, referring to both characters, that could be added to when/if DMs follow up on those hooks? (Seems like it would help if DMs were to try to weave a story across multiple PCs and adventures and DMs!)

I would say all these changes sound fine.

Are any of the judges following the changes of all L4W: pages? It would be great to get an RSS feed of all changes in L4W: except for characters, so that somebody could scan them and check for vandalism or just people going too far.
I wouldn't want or expect a lot of hard-and-fast rules about editing the wiki. But any sort of unwritten rules or customs? Someone or someplace to "sanity check" any edits? Do the judges generally review edits to the main pages? (At the least, I'd planned to wait until after character approval.)[/QUOTE]

 

[ryryguy]

The problem with this is that not all of the character judges have DDI accounts. I have one, but I'm usually not on a Windows computer so I can't run the character builder most of the time.

Ah, but there's the free version of the builder covering levels 1 to 3. So unless a judge doesn't have a Windows machine, he should at least be able to check new characters.

BTW, the Transitive Isles page is linked to in the charter thread, under "World Building". Maybe it should be made more prominent, though - it comes after a lot of technical fine print about Dungeon Mastering and experience calculations. I think the Charter should start with an intro to the setting, and then character creation info, instead of rules first.]

I agree 100%. Basically, I was looking for that sort of info on that page and not seeing it. (I may well have found the Transitive Isle page from there, I don't remember, but it's certainly not called out at all.)

 

[Don Incognito]

I just proposed an adventure entitled "Fire And Ice" for 1st level PCs (and maybe a 2nd level, its kinda hard).

Maybe I'll wait and see until some of the Fire folks are done, or maybe not.

If you're a judge, read it if you get the chance. Perhaps you shall be pleasantly surprised

 

[Oni]

I know PHB2 isn't proposed yet, but I don't want to forget about this: the Bard has a lot of abilities that "slide" allies rather than granting them a shift. That technically means the ally gets no input into where or if they move, it's all done by the Bard. A malicious player could use this to slide their "allies" off a cliff or into danger, but also an inexperienced player (or just a stubborn one who disagrees on tactics) could move a character into a position they object to even if it's not obviously a terrible idea.

I think we should add an exception like with the Dark Pact warlock, saying that bards can't slide unwilling allies. (There's a school of thought that "willing" is implied in the definition of "ally", but we should make it explicit.)

That should be unnecessary if you want to be real rulesy about it.

See PHB pg57, Targets section.

Anytime the term ally or allies is used they are assuming a willing target. Ergo if the target is unwilling they should not be affected. That's how I read it anyway.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Ah, but there's the free version of the builder covering levels 1 to 3. So unless a judge doesn't have a Windows machine, he should at least be able to check new characters.

Yes, but does the trial version cover material that was released since the trial version was made available? I seem to recall that you needed a subscription to update the CB database, which means that anything from PHB2 at the very least wouldn't read in the trial version ... unless you get everything for level 1-3 if you redownload the trial.

Regardless, that still means that once you pass level 3 you'd have to rework your entire math section so it doesn't rely on the CB, which seems like making work to me. Of course, I'm one of the judges who doesn't have a DDI subscription, so I might be a little biased

 

[ryryguy]

Yes, but does the trial version cover material that was released since the trial version was made available? I seem to recall that you needed a subscription to update the CB database, which means that anything from PHB2 at the very least wouldn't read in the trial version ... unless you get everything for level 1-3 if you redownload the trial.

I believe it actually does include the level 1-3 stuff. In fact, I'm sure it does include that from the PHB2. (Not sure about some of the material from Dragon and other sources, that may still require a subscription.)

Regardless, that still means that once you pass level 3 you'd have to rework your entire math section so it doesn't rely on the CB, which seems like making work to me. Of course, I'm one of the judges who doesn't have a DDI subscription, so I might be a little biased

Judges who do have the subscription could still check it. Depending how that is, it still might be plausible - there should be significantly fewer characters needing checking at levels 4+.

Even if not, if the player did have to redo the math section at that point, it wouldn't really be much more work than doing it at level 1 to begin with. (It's hardly any work at all to use the character builder in the first place.)

 

[CaBaNa]

does switching the .dnd4e into a .pdf help? it would be readable for anyone at that point instead of just DDI subscription holders.

show the .pdf and have the .dnd4e file available for download, that way DDI subscribers could open it in the builder and anyone else could view it without having any issue.