LA confusion; Forked from: Reincarnate

[Eldritch_Lord]

Regarding LA, RHD, racial progressions...the reason they're so harsh is, in addition to what Jeff Wilder mentioned, that the devs want to make playing nonstandard races less appealing, as they're not Tolkienesque enough and/or make playing with standard races more difficult. I've done a mathematical breakdown of a bunch of LA races which shows that equivalent benefits are assigned worse LA and RHD the weirder the base race is (like ogres and gnolls being almost exactly equivalent but the Large, ugly ogre being penalized more than the slightly furry gnoll), but unfortunately I can't find it at the moment to link to it.

Suffice to say that if you can't get your hands on the changeling material, you should ask your DM to waive the "must take all levels in a racial progression first" rule--it's unnecessarily crippling your character, since class benefits >> racial benefits in the vast majority of cases.

As for the WotC site, I'm paranoid about the EULA/Terms of Use they have there, continually talking about purchases and such, which was why I kept searching and came here in the first place. Otherwise, I would most definitely take that advice.

The WotC boards aren't all that bad in terms of general discussion. All the Terms of Use really apply to is homebrewed material (and that they can take any of it, at any time, for any reason). If you're not a homebrewer and/or DM, you should be just fine there, though the atmosphere leaves something to be desired now that 4e is out. For a compulsive homebrewer like myself, it's okay, as long as I never post anything I actually care about (i.e., cool stuff that I couldn't care less about being credited for).

 

[Theroc]

Regarding LA, RHD, racial progressions...the reason they're so harsh is, in addition to what Jeff Wilder mentioned, that the devs want to make playing nonstandard races less appealing, as they're not Tolkienesque enough and/or make playing with standard races more difficult. I've done a mathematical breakdown of a bunch of LA races which shows that equivalent benefits are assigned worse LA and RHD the weirder the base race is (like ogres and gnolls being almost exactly equivalent but the Large, ugly ogre being penalized more than the slightly furry gnoll), but unfortunately I can't find it at the moment to link to it.

Suffice to say that if you can't get your hands on the changeling material, you should ask your DM to waive the "must take all levels in a racial progression first" rule--it's unnecessarily crippling your character, since class benefits >> racial benefits in the vast majority of cases.



The WotC boards aren't all that bad in terms of general discussion. All the Terms of Use really apply to is homebrewed material (and that they can take any of it, at any time, for any reason). If you're not a homebrewer and/or DM, you should be just fine there, though the atmosphere leaves something to be desired now that 4e is out. For a compulsive homebrewer like myself, it's okay, as long as I never post anything I actually care about (i.e., cool stuff that I couldn't care less about being credited for).

To clarify on the second part, the EULA thing when I went to sign up on the boards gave me the creepy notion that I would be forced to download a programs and/or make purchases to use the Forum, and being a lazy person with attention span issues couldn't read the whole thing, I just decided to look elsewhere to post.

Or does WotC have multiple D&D based forums, and I was only looking at one of them?

As for the racial penalties, I sorta get their point, but I like playing things slightly out of the norm. I've always thought the Drow were awesome looking and their society conducive to making interesting characters. My own Drow concept was somewhat of a cross between a typical Drow and Drizzt from Forgotten Realms, in that while he wasn't some goody-twoshoes like Drizzt, he was more of a 'Wolverine' type of guy. But knowing how the penalties work out, any role I'd try to create with a Drow would almost invariably end up weaker than an elf with the same setup. It is successful at it's job of discouraging me from using them, though at the same time the overheavy penalty also disappoints me, as the variance and choice of D&D is why I'm so excited to play.

 

[Runestar]

If you mean that LA is a bigger hit to the character, then yes. Racial hit dice are weak compared to class hit dice, but at least you're getting something.

It actually depends. If we assume that wotc already took this into account, then it should all even out. For example, if we look at the half-ogre from races of destiny and ogre from MM, both are LA+2, but the ogre gets superior stats because he also has the baggage of 4 crappy giant HD (which would have been 4 extra class lvs for the half-ogre).

Whether crappy giant HD + slightly better physical stats is better or worse than 4 actual class lvs is another issue though.

But once again, wotc seems quite inconsistent in applying this. Compare the goliath to the gnoll. Both are comparable, yet both are the same LA+1, and the gnoll still has the drawback of 2 crummy humanoid HD.

But this is a pretty big "except." And note that buying off LA is an optional rule, not a core (or even "splatbook-official" rule.

In theory at least, it is possible to "buy off" racial HD, by finding a way to permanently lv-drain yourself and voluntarily failing the fort save 24 hours day (how feasible it is however....). You lose your racial HD, and your ECL would lower as a result. This results in more xp (using the DMG 3.5 xp progression rules), so you should eventually catch up.

One interesting thing I noticed is that LA templates seem much more appealing in epic, because of the epic bab progression rules. Take the half-celestial template for example. Prior to lv20, that LA+4 means a potential +4bab lost from the 4 fewer class lvs I could otherwise have. But now compare a half-celestial fighter20 to a fighter24. Bab+20 vs Bab+22, meaning the disparity is just +2bab (much smaller), so the opportunity cost is lower.

So, which of the races are things to be avoided in the future as a character that doesn't want to gimp themselves down the road? The Giants seemed... way excessive on the penalties, given they ended up being what, effectively level 16 before picking up a character level?

You will generally want to avoid any "dead end" monster races that do not mesh well with class lvs at all, like the ogre mage or succubus. They may have fun abilities, but after you have finished the progression, class lvs don't really augment their core competencies much. So you are effectively starting from from scratch. Never a wise thing to do at lv13+.

Monsters with huge ECLs are not necessarily unplayable, but you will have to decide this for yourself on a case by case basis. If said monster's ECl was a fairly accurate indicator of its overall usefulness in a party, and the savage progression broke it down properly, it should still make for a decent PC.

There is also the problem of monster HD being very stingy when it comes to skill points (most tend to give only 2+int mod skill points, and have very lousy skill lists). So if you want to play a roguish PC, you might want to stick to a race without racial HD, so you can get the benefits of your 1st lv of rogue (much more skill points). Or at least, think of adding HD/LA after you have taken class lvs (such as the lycanthrope template).

Basically, you will want to first determine what role the monster can play, and what role you want it to fill in. Then (assuming your campaign extends well beyond its ECL) check that you can continue to make a viable character build with it by tacking on class lvs. For example, an ogre could still make a decent fighter past ECL6 (1 lv of fighter gives it heavy armour prof, mitigating its otherwise poor AC, while barb nets it rage).

I think a dragon PC (using the progression tables from dragon320 and 332) could still be viable. I haven't exactly tried one, but looking at what they get, it appears they should still be fairly strong at low lvs, maybe a tad lackluster at mid lvs, before picking up again at higher lvs.

Played carefully, a ghaele makes for a fairly strong PC as well. Granted, its usefulness dropped somewhat once we discovered the wonders of wands of CLW/vigor...

 

[irdeggman]

I'd really recommend getting the info on changelings and shifters (from Eberron). They may be in Races of Eberron, too.

Changelings and shifters were actively designed to give the "feel" of playing dopplegangers and lycanthropes in a +0 LA race. Both are, IMO, very well done. Balanced and flavorful.

I echo this.

Races of Eberron is one of the best books I've seen.

It has a lot of information on the races of the setting (specifically the "new" ones - shifter, changelings, kalashtar and warforged.

They also have some real good racial substitution levels. If you are unfamiliar with racial substitution levels - they started like in Races of the Wild I believe.

What they do is that at certain class levels you insted take a racial substitution level. This swaps out some normal class benefit for one that is more "tailored" to the "theme" of the race. In general they are more powerful but much more "focused" than the standard class abilities and they feed off of the races strong points.

There isn't a racial substitution level for changeling druid, although there is a changeling rogue, psion and wizard one.

There are shifter druid, ranger and wilder ones. {My son is running a shifter druid with substitution levels in my Age of Worms game and his PC is real interesting (and powerful when he remembers his "abilities").}

In Races of the Wild there are elf paladin, ranger and wizard ones.

I haven't seen any drow ones nor an elf druid either.


Another way to look at things is from teh WotC site and their Savage Progressions articles.

Savage Progressions Archive

Basically they break down LA races to "class like" levels. In essence when you would normally take a class level you take one of these racial levels and gain incremental racial abilities. Now the racial levels almost never grant hit dice so they are a lot like "empty" levels but they provide a way to handle LA races without a sudden "hit". It also has a way of being a "light" LA race since you do not have to take all (or any) of the racial levels, and you can take them at any time so you could disperse them across your PC's career.

What I would suggest is talking to your DM about the "concept" for the character and see if she can offer suggestions for how to best get there. There may be a lot of issues on what races and classes are "allowed" in the game - so I would not suggest coming in with a totally "set" character since it maight be possible that she wouldn't allow that race, class, "option", etc.

It is amost always better to develop a concept and then work with the DM on how to fill it in the setting rather than to show up with a completed character sheet and then engage is "negotiations" with the DM. This is especially true when first joining a game/group. There are almost always a set of house-rules that a DM uses that a new player needs to get acquainted with prior to starting.

 

[Theroc]

Thanks for the advice again guys, I appreciate it.

Deggman, something I should add is this will be the DM's first attempt at being a DM for a serious game, and the number of players is now approaching ten for her first adventure. The materials that we have available for that campaign to my knowledge are in my signature, though she has not yet decided if she will disallow any material from them.

Pretty much everyone in that group will be playing D&D for the first time for the most part. I've played a few rules-light mini-adventures, but aside from that, I'm just a guy who stares at what rulebooks he can find like a kid looking in the window of the candy store.

I will definitely look into getting some form of access to the Races of Eberron books, though one thing I noticed in my limited research that I disliked is that Shifters can basically change ONE aspect of themselves ONCE per day for only 30 seconds. That's so much more limiting than the Lycanthropes, and they had other advantages. Granted, Wizard's look at shifter's didn't give me ANY of the same numbers I got that I do for Lycanthropes, so perhaps those issues are addressed there.

I am familiar with racial substitution levels from the Races of Stone, they had a few there. I'll have to find Savage Species as well, and hope to stumble on some cash while I'm at it, rofl.

Anyways, the reason I'd come up with the Doppleganger Druid concept was I was looking into becoming a powerful shapeshifter(Saw Warshaper and was like, "HOLY CRAP THAT'S AWESOME!"), but was concerned that the group would occasionally be stuck with NO healer, so I figured going Druid would allow my character to slot healing and support spells for the times that he wouldn't be wildshaping and charging into the fray(as the friend I KNOW intending to play a character wanted to play a Chaotic Good Cleric of the Healing and Destruction Domains, but his schedule prohibits a regular playschedule.)

Hrm... I'm getting sorta derailed at this point. In any case, I really appreciate this help, and one of these days I'll have to try and get ahold of these materials being recommended.

As for Drow, they do seem to be kinda glossed over, and most likely due to the typical setup of them being nearly 'pure' evil, with the exception of the ever famous Drizzt.

I really appreciate all the advice you guys are giving. As difficult it is for me to use alot of it, it also tells me which resources I should look into finding once I come into some money. At the moment, it appears my best bet, though, is to ask her about the LA buyoff for simplicities sake(if playing a LA race with no Monster HD) rather than getting into homebrewing the DM. Though, after looking at that Savage Progressions, that seems like a good thing to point out to the her if she gets internet when I show up to play. Or I could try to get it in a Word Processor to print out for her. I'd totally missed that was a link when I first started.

Thanks so much guys.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

If the racial information for changelings is in the Eberron Campaign setting book, I may be able to gain access to it, as I believe I saw that at my DM's library(She lives like 80 miles away though).

If you're DM doesn't feel comfortable with campaign-specific races, then tell him/her Changlings are also in the Monster Manual 3, p. 24. No LA, no racial HD.

 

[irdeggman]

I will definitely look into getting some form of access to the Races of Eberron books, though one thing I noticed in my limited research that I disliked is that Shifters can basically change ONE aspect of themselves ONCE per day for only 30 seconds. That's so much more limiting than the Lycanthropes, and they had other advantages. Granted, Wizard's look at shifter's didn't give me ANY of the same numbers I got that I do for Lycanthropes, so perhaps those issues are addressed there.

Shifter can "shift" 1/day for a number of rounds equal to 3 + Con Mod + number of shifter feats taken. For every 2 shifter feats taken the number of times per day increases by 1.

They gain an "aspect" that reflects their shifter heritage.

For example while shifting a razorclaw shifter gets:

(1) +2 bonus to Str

(2) Claws used for a natural attack that does 1d4 plus 1 for every 4 character levels. He can use a single claw as a standard action or both claws as a full round action. Never gains multiple attacks due to high BAB with natural weapons though.


All shifters gain:
+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
low light vision
+2 racial bonus to balance, climb and jump checks

LA = +0 (basically this is why they don't inherently gain the ability to shift more than 1/day).

The shifter druid racial substitution levels:
1st - Beast Spirit (instead of Animal Companion) {This is unbelievably powerful and a must have for anyone considering this.}

Based on class level get a bunch of benefits including a + to an ability score for the day (+2 at 3rd level up to a +6 at 18th level) which can be added to one of the following abilities: Str, Dex or Con. This ability increase can be changed each day when the shifter druid prepares his spells. The other benefits include (amongst others); alertness, extend shifting (+2 rounds to shifting duration), at 12th level get rapid summons (Any summoning spell is cast as a standard action instead of a full round one)

Other racial substitution levels include

Reckless Nature instead of resist nature's lure

Wild Shifting (modification to wild shape - adds an extra time per day to shifting and swaps Wis mod for Con mod when figuring duration), natural weapons are also increased in size (depending on level).

A pretty sweet combination IMO.

 

[Arkhandus]

Dragon Magazine issue 313, November 2003, volume XXVIII (28) featured Savage Species -style advancement for lycanthropic characters, as well as a set of half-monster races.

For a lycanthrope, you could either go the natural lycanthrope route and use one of those progressions, or play an afflicted lycanthrope who had multiple class levels beforehand and has only started acquiring lycanthrope 'levels' more recently.

The half-monster races detailed near the end of the issue are the Half-Doppelganger, Half-Janni, Half-Minotaur, Half-Nymph, Half-Ogre, Half-Rakshasa, and Half-Satyr. All are templates for adding to another base creature, such as a human or something. Any of these would be much easier to use than a pure monster-race. Half-Doppelgangers, for example, have a +2 Level Adjustment and no racial hit dice (just their base race's stuff and a few doppelganger traits).


Besides that, Dragon Magazine issue 317, March 2004, volume 28, features a preview near the end of it for Eberron's Shifter race. It details the Shifter and their racial traits. The only drawback to using that as a reference is that it only has 4 sample Shifter feats: Shifter Defense, Healing Factor, Extra Lycanthropic Characteristic, and Great Rend. That issue also has 4 exotic races from no particular setting; a plant-like race, a golem-like race, a reptilian race, and a savage fey race.

Still, if you're looking for a cheap way to get material for one of those character concepts you touched on, buying a single old issue of Dragon Magazine, or finding it in your own collection if any, or finding these specific articles in a Dragon Compendium or something is your best bet.

 

[Theroc]

Thanks for the advice Ark.

Unfortunately cash is tight atm and I wouldn't know where to find issues of Dragon magazine even if I did know. However, Degg linked me to an online source with Wizards which seems to be similar to what you'd listed, the Savage Progressions articles, which are online and available for me to access.

It doesn't include those half-monsters you listed, however.

Thanks again guys.