Lack of saving throws against various effects

[Ellington]

I just wanted to see how you guys felt about the lack of saving throws or opposed rolls against spells and maneuvers that can actually have a somewhat potent effect. Here's a short list (probably not exhaustive) of these abilities and their effects.

FIGHTER MANEUVERS - These only require the fighter to hit and don't offer any sort of save from the target creature, no matter how powerful it is (size does matter, though)

Push (10 ft knockback)
Knock Down (prone)

Getting knocked down can be a pretty big thing, especially if there's a rogue somewhere around to utilize the advantage granted against you. The knockback isn't quite as bad, I guess, but getting knocked off a cliff without a save could be annoying.

ROGUE ABILITY - Only the one I can count, offers no save or opposed roll, but requires the rogue to hit

Cheap shot (Movement reduced to 0 for one round)

I can already see the potential abuse. With the Sharpshooter speciality, you can spend your turns using Aim and moving around, guaranteeing the target will never catch you while you can just pluck away. Working on any creature without a save is huge.

SPELLS - I'll omit spells with HP thresholds, that's enough for another thread in itself

Ghoul Touch (Movement reduced to 0 for ONE MINUTE)
Shocking Grasp (no reactions)
Ray of Frost (Speed drops by 10 ft)

These aren't too bad, apart from Ghoul Touch. Having your movement speed reduced to 0, with NO SAVING THROW, for a whole minute while the party can just fire at you for ten rounds is insane. I realize the wizard has to get into a dangerous position to get this off, but still.

Am I overreacting or should at least some of these drastic effects allow for some more defense on the monsters behalf beyond praying that the PC doesn't make his hit?

 

[howandwhy99]

Considering none of these are longer than 1 round (except for possibly Prone), I'd say they aren't that bad.
EDIT: oops, and ghoul touch's 1 minute (1 combat)

Personally, the high degree of condition tracking and how fast it turns over on a 6 second basis bothers me more as a DM.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The thinking seems to be:

Your attack will require EITHER an attack roll (you need to roll to hit) OR a saving throw (your enemies need to roll to avoid).

Since these things have attack rolls, they don't need saving throws.

 

[TerraDave]

Its what KM, said, though it seems like Ghoul Touch should have a save to end it, at least after a while.

 

[Transformer]

The thinking seems to be:

Your attack will require EITHER an attack roll (you need to roll to hit) OR a saving throw (your enemies need to roll to avoid).

Since these things have attack rolls, they don't need saving throws.

And I think that's as it should be. If an attack were to require both, it would have to be very powerful to compensate. So you'd have two problems: two dice rolls to resolve one action (not elegant, not conducive to quick combats) and very swingy spells that don't work most of the time but trivialize tough encounters when they do.

If these spells are, in fact, too powerful to work with just an attack roll, they need to be nerfed.

 

[Chronikoce]

I agree with Transformer. I'd rather see attack roll OR save rather than both. If any abilities do turn out to be too powerful when playtested then lower their power level rather than adding another roll.

 

[Jack99]

Its what KM, said, though it seems like Ghoul Touch should have a save to end it, at least after a while.

Hmm - Did I misread it? Hang on...

 

[Pickles JG]

The thinking seems to be:

Your attack will require EITHER an attack roll (you need to roll to hit) OR a saving throw (your enemies need to roll to avoid).

Since these things have attack rolls, they don't need saving throws.

I agree with this in general but

1) The manoevres are different from the spells as you choose to use them after hitting with them so when you do use it you have already hit. The rogue's cheapshot is just a huge upgrade to the sneak attack, though it does not synergise with the Thug's first abilty which puts him in melee.

2) You get damage from some of these effects so you might say that as you are getting two things for the price of one you should get a save against the second, bonus, effect.

Without playing them I cannot really evaluate them but I hope they work well with just one roll.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1) The manoevres are different from the spells as you choose to use them after hitting with them so when you do use it you have already hit. The rogue's cheapshot is just a huge upgrade to the sneak attack, though it does not synergise with the Thug's first abilty which puts him in melee.

Keep in mind that maneuvers can't be "used up" like spells can. So if you use one before you miss, it is the same thing as if you miss and don't get to use one. You always have access to all of your maneuvers. So they're reliable like that.

2) You get damage from some of these effects so you might say that as you are getting two things for the price of one you should get a save against the second, bonus, effect.

Unless it's like DOUBLE DAMAGE or something, two rolls seems unnecessary to me.

 

[Chronikoce]

The sneak attack one does seem strange to me. You could in theory have a group with two rogues who alternate hiding and attacking so that the target can never move.