D&D General Languages suck in D&D.

[Ruin Explorer]

If someone who speaks Auric understands 30% of Gnomish, Hitchkel what does that mean? Any guidance provided? I am not a linguist, but that doesn't seem useful to me, but maybe it is - IDK.

You're misreading the chart. Each dot lowers you from 100% by 10%.

So the Auric speaker understands about 70% of what the Hitekhel speaker is saying (and vice-versa), in terms of intent and specifics. The book assumes good-faith roleplaying between the PCs and DM on this, and defers to the DM in the end. There's a bit more guidance, but that's the gist. I think it's fair to say most people don't struggle with this concept, not even children, given we didn't.

And how much Goblin Ilquar could I understand 40% of 30% so 12%? What does that mean?

No. Each dot is 10% less fluency, as I said. You choose the starting point, then you count every dot on the way. There are 7 dots between Auric and Ilquar, so the the Auric speaker understands about 30% of the intent and specifics of the Illquar speaker and vice-versa.

If you then go on to Alan-Aku, you're at 0%, so there's no mutual intelligibility at all.

 

[dave2008]

You're misreading the chart. Each dot lowers you from 100% by 10%.

So the Auric speaker understands about 70% of what the Hitekhel speaker is saying (and vice-versa), in terms of intent and specifics. The book assumes good-faith roleplaying between the PCs and DM on this, and defers to the DM in the end. There's a bit more guidance, but that's the gist. I think it's fair to say most people don't struggle with this concept, not even children, given we didn't.

No, it would be people who think to much that will struggle (generally speaking, though it is cultural too). Children tend not to overthink things (though this is cultural like I said) and just run with it. I am kind of over that hump now, but not completely. In my middle years I thought about things to much, now, not so much. That being said, I don't know what understanding 30% of a language gets you. Could I wing it, sure. But I would rather not even think about it!

No. Each dot is 10% less fluency, as I said. You choose the starting point, then you count every dot on the way. There are 7 dots between Auric and Ilquar, so the the Auric speaker understands about 30% of the intent and specifics of the Illquar speaker and vice-versa.

OK, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification. I did miss where you said 10% less fluency and read it as 10% fluency. The "intent and specifics" is also a helpful clarification. That is more helpful to me than saying 30% of a language.

 

[Tonguez]

For another take on things lets consider the role of Primal Languages spoken by Immortal creatures - Celestial/Infernal, Primordial, Draconic and Fey (Sylvan). As those creatures are immortal there is an active core of that language being spoken and written, providing for linguistic consistency over time rather than dialect fragmentation.

Celestial and Infernal are just variations of a single language used by Diety-level beings when they deign to 'speak'. The languages of Dwarfs, Halfling and Orcs etc are a 'gift from their gods' and can be considered derivative of Celestial.

Primordial the language of elementals is also the mother tongue of the Giant dialects including Ogre which may have had significant influence on Orcish and Goblin. Aarakocra and Triton also speak elemental languages derived from Primordial

Sylvan (which may be a sister language to Primordial) is the source language of Elf, Gnome and goblin, it also had a huge impact on Druids cant. Goblin also seems to have had huge impact on many creatures.

Theres also the fact that some species (Tabaxi?) might have non-verbal components to their language delivered through ear, tail or tentacle movements. Maybe the Druid cant is a sign language where Druids attempt to mimic the movements of animals.

Common is obviously a trade koine, which Humans have adopted as their primary mother tongue.

I treat Language as Knowledge:Culture so if you know a language you gain insights and advantage dealing with the relevant culture

 

[Laurefindel]

Core D&D has 16 languages. And they all suck except MAYBE one.

That's not to say that it 'sucks' to speak a specific given language or whatever. Or that people speaking Goblin being incapable of communicating with people who don't speak Goblin is somehow unrealistic.

I'm saying that, as a concept, the languages that are provided are terrible and provide an image of cultural monoliths and narrative identity-stripping to a ridiculous degree. Sincerely just awful.

Essentially: Every "Race" gets its own language. And every "Race" that you add gets to speak it's own unique special snowflake language which further dilutes all understanding to being Common and nothing else. Common, as a result, is the language that everything in the entire game gets communicated in, unless the party's elves want to talk trash about the dwarf in the bar without anyone overhearing them.

... which is a valid use of other languages, of course, but the point is most languages are rendered utterly moot.

It also means that every Goblin speaks the same language everywhere in the world. Every Bugbear, Hobgoblin, and Goblin from the Moonshae Isles to the ass-end of Kara Tur speaks Goblin in the exact same way... Though depending on your DM they might speak it with one of several offensive accent caricatures.

Goblins in the Underdark? Goblin. Goblins on the mountaintops? Goblin. Goblins isolated to a fast-time demiplane for 10,000 years with a hyper-evolved society and space-fantasy technology? Goblin.

Meanwhile, in the -REAL WORLD-, people on the "Wrong Side" of the Alps spoke such a different language the Romans called them barbarians to insult the mealy-mouthed pronunciation of their 'Bar Bar Bar Bar' language.

Hell, even the countries conquered by Rome, that once all spoke Latin because it was -THE- language to speak, now mostly speak new languages that are still based -on- Latin... But don't make sense to each other. Don't believe me? Go to Spain and speak Italian, exclusively, while telling everyone you're speaking the Roman tongue and they should understand you!

Okay, don't do that. But you know what I mean. Even though French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, and Spanish are all "Romance Languages" based on Latin they've all evolved in very different ways due to native cultural languages, neighboring languages, and conquests.

And it's not like Pathfinder is -much- different in that regard. Oh, sure, they add a ton of different human languages to go along with 'Common'... But then they keep all the other Race languages and add in some fresh ones like Vanaran and Sahaugin and Rougarou and...

Like come the hell on, Golarion, you -almost- had it and then you biffed the landing!

So what's the one maybe good language? Undercommon. Because even though it, like common, is an insane trade language, it almost makes sense because it is, itself, a regional language. The region is Underdark.

Regional languages make infinitely more sense for a story purpose. If you absolutely HAVE to have at least ONE racial language, make it Elven to show they're a united people for all their disparities... united in being old and unwilling to adapt their language based on the cultures and languages around themselves.

But imagine a setting where there are, maybe, 6 languages to choose from for the area you're in. Your character's heritage as an elf or a halfling doesn't really play into which of those 6 you know, but one is the most common, like English in England, but there's still Gaelic, Scots, and Welsh about, the nobles speak French, and the Germans are a potential threat. Way easier to pick languages that make sense for your character in relation to the setting, and even if there's only a handful of pieces of German in the entire game it'll still be more useful than freaking Rougarou...

Corollary: Thieves Cant is trash. It's meant to simulate Cockney rhyming slang being used to confuse cops and stuff, but adding in a universal "Thief" language doesn't make any more sense when your thieves from opposite ends of the world can communicate without any issue.

TLDR
Racial languages, which D&D runs on as a foundational principle, suck. Regional Languages are way better.

It’s much worse than that; goblins speak the same language across settings! They also have the same general outlook, the same behaviour, the basically the same culture. In short, they have the same entry in the Monster Manual.

The traditional fundamentalist approach of fantasy races is being more and more challenged for a more multicultural, integrated society of various species, but universal languages are just one tiny part of it. The bottom line is, species still all have the same pantheon, the same gods who really exist and grant powers, telling their people what to do, how to speak, and how to behave to deserve a place of choice in the afterlife - no wonder all elves (to take one example) look/behave/smell the same and all speak ‘elvish’. To really change that would mean significant changes and judging from the orc threads, would divide the D&D community pretty deeply. So in the meantime, WotC won’t change this too quickly and too suddenly. The result is an unsatisfying and inconsistent result IMO.

 

[the Jester]

This is a topic near and dear to my heart, but I have to leave in a few minutes. I'll do a quick copy and paste of some of my language rules; but due to formatting issues I will have to save the list of what languages are in what category, and the levels of similarity that they have, for after I come home later.


LANGUAGES IN CYDRA

Languages can be broken down into several (fairly arbitrary) categories.

Common Tongues: These are tongues that are widely spoken. Everyone speaks a common tongue, but what language that is depends on where you are. In most places where the campaign takes place, the “Common” that pcs speak is Imperial.

Ordinary Languages: These are languages that people are broadly familiar with and have heard of. It's not uncommon to find speakers of these languages.

Exotic Languages: These are languages that aren't widely spoken, and that many people have probably never heard or, in some cases, even heard of.

Extinct Languages: These are languages that have no surviving native speakers. Either the language has evolved into new forms or the people speaking it have died out.

LEARNING A LANGUAGE

Similarity: Similarity makes it easier to learn a new language. It is a discount in the time required (e.g. if you speak Imperial and you wish to learn Low Forinthian, you take only 200 days instead of 250 to reach full proficiency).

A creature that speaks a language with a similarity of 75% or higher is half-trained in that language.

Immersion: Being immersed in a language, where nobody around you is speaking any other language for the vast majority of the time, increasing the speed at which one gains proficiency in a language. Each day in such conditions counts as 2 days towards proficiency without spending downtime on training. A creature that actively trains under such conditions can instead count each day as 5.

Half Trained: Once a creature has reached the halfway point in learning a language, it can have a basic, but not complex, conversation with a speaker of that language using a combination of words, gestures, and pidgin.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe for the one person at the table that's interested in linguistics. Everyone else is going to find it annoying and unsatisfying that they can't talk to the shopkeeper two towns over.

Glad you're so well-informed about the community that you can make so such bold, sweeping statements as if they were objective truth. I can only speak for myself and my group, but, I'm not the only one at my table who sees the value in more realistic language rules. A recent article in Level Up's Gate Pass Gazeteer even featured a variety of more granular rules for language in 5e. Your assumptions about others are just that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Catching up on the thread go me thinking about magic items and scrolls that use other languages. A scroll written in elf or orc or devil might be harder to a non-speaker to use. Same with using items with command words that use non-common language. Would there be a problem casting something if you pronounce a command word wrong? Would the scroll just fizzle if you try and cast it without knowing how to read the words correctly? These could just be more hoops for the players or punishment for casters as well.

All of that sounds great to me, and I would feel the same as a player.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That might be for the best. Why have extraneous rules and whole levels from 11-20 that most people don't use?

I think the "Common comes from Sigil" thing is brand-new. I don't recall ever hearing if it before 5.5.

And if WotC ever decides to do what you're suggesting here, I look forward to watching how that shakes out with a tub of popcorn.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Alignment languages were fortunately forgotten past 1e.

But there was a Fanon theory of alignment languages in 2e that they were really just based on languages of certain planar exemplars, like "Neutral" being based off of the Rilmani language or "Lawful Neutral" being based off the Modron language.

But that theory wouldn't really hold well, because how does every Neutral individual know something that the Rilmani speak (probably worse now with the changes to Rilmani as they might communicate with shifting forms of their liquid metal body parts) and would all Lawful Neutral people understand something that's probably more like binary code as noises coming from a Modron?

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I think the "Common comes from Sigil" thing is brand-new. I don't recall ever hearing if it before 5.5.

And if WotC ever decides to do what you're suggesting here, I look forward to watching how that shakes out with a tub of popcorn.

It's definitely a 5.5 thing.