D&D General Languages suck in D&D.

[Voadam]

Wouldn't comprehensibility also involve an Insight check (and therefore a WIS check) in order to ascertain what another person is trying to tell you while speaking a different language (that is either distant or related to your own)?

That would definitely be an option. Understanding language, particularly a piece of written text with no body language to cue off of seems more like an int check to me though, perhaps an insight check using intelligence.

Rulings not rules.

From the 14 5e PH:

INTELLIGENCE
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
INTELLIGENCE CHECKS
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning.

Other Intelligence Checks. The DM might call for an Intelligence check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:
Communicate with a creature without using words

WISDOM
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are t o the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.
WISDOM CHECKS
A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone's feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person.
Insight. Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone's next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.

 

[Steampunkette]

Dudette you totally missing everything important. Let's start with the at least 3 other examples already provided in this thread. The least of which was 1 page for just the languages table. And the other person who said they would expect their version to be 5 pages. So sure, 20 pages is certainly too much, but 800 words is probably not enough. But this actually isn't the important part.

Someone could certainly make multiple pages worth of tables, sure. And not the actual important bit... 'kay.

As for your publishing example, that shows that publishing content for WotC is not simple and straight forward. It shows that there are many more people, and costs involved, than just paying 25 cents per word. And my points that it's not about the words, but the opportunity cost. Publishing anything about one things means they don't publish something else.

There is a LANGUAGE part of the D&D core rulebooks. Whether they were to use a NEW system or an OLD system there would still be a LANGUAGE part of the book. The "Opportunity Cost", therefore, is not "We could have something new if they didn't waste time writing about languages" so much as "How much more words about language would be written?" instead. Which means, yes, it's -just- a matter of how many words they're willing to pay someone to write. 800, 2,000, whatever the count is.

This is not adding a whole new chapter on Boll Weevils or the agricultural use of undead on the Thaymount. Languages is already part of the book.

And no, I know very little about WotC's publishing process. But I do know my own publishing process as I've published multiple products over the years, most of the D&D related. It's never as simple as you made it sound initially. You process outline shows that.

The part where languages are handled exists pretty much exclusively between 4 and 5. Grabbing writers and assigning writing. Which is pretty much the only part the designers and writers take part in, unless something gets bounced back to them for not being up to standard.

That is, pretty much exclusively, the part where the writers do anything.

You are completely ignoring my other points that are even more important than the size or process. First, you admit this would only be used by a small number of folks. Not that you need me to support your idea, but if you want me to you're going to have to show my why it's a good business decision for WotC to spend resources on it.

Everyone's already going to buy the PHB and DMG so it doesn't really matter how much of the userbase uses that particular rule, much like Encumbrance which is ignored almost universally and is still in the book.

This is not a big "Business Decision" where the couple hundred bucks to pay a writer to write a small section of the book is going to wind up costing WotC Millions down the road. Or where people will refuse to buy the book because they don't like changing up how Language works away from Race Languages.

Well. There -will- be people like that. But, really, there's people like that about literally ANYTHING you write in the books, so it's a "Can't please 'em all" write off.

(Edit: and you completely ignored my whole section on Comprehend Languages and what it does to a detailed language system.)

I don't see that in any of the posts we've been doing but... what about it? Comprehend Languages and Tongues breaks language no matter what, so why worry that it would do it to a different language system than "Common + Races"?

I would also like to know, if a detailed language system is so important to world building and D&D, then why don't you publish your own version of it? There are several folks here who agree with you and perhaps might even collaborate in developing such. And since you believe publishing is so easy, you can publish it yourself and make a ton of money since it's so important to D&D that surely you will sell a million copies.

"Detailed" language system... I don't think you've seen my actual intention.

And because it doesn't matter if I publish the most perfect and widely used language system in the 3rd Party space, if it's not in the PHB most players won't be aware of it, and will continue to use the terrible "Race Language" structure.

Also... I've written official material for Level Up/A5e, 3rd Party material for Purple Martin Games and Josh Gentry, published my own book which is the biggest single book in the A5e 3rd party space, had articles in the Gate Pass Gazette and EN5ider.

A Million copies, though? That's Paizo and WotC territory. Not a small 3rd party publisher.

And you think a detailed language system would be more popular than character options? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every survey done here on ENWorld or by WotC point to more character options always being one of the top wants?

Why do you believe that a language structure that isn't "Common + Races" is "Detailed"?

Why do you believe that having any language structure that isn't "Common + Races" is exclusive of additional character options?

I stand by my point, adding a detailed language system would be a bad business decision for WotC to spend any words on. But it's a great opportunity for homebrew. And even a good opportunity to publish on the DMsGuild.

I disagree. Both that it's a "Bad Business Decision" since anything in the PHB is going to sell regardless of whether it costs them $150 or $280...

And it's a terrible opportunity for Homebrew because while you can do interesting stuff in your own settings (And I do use a simple language system in my settings that is different from Common+Races) it won't touch the cultural weight or momentum of whatever the PHB says.

I think you overvalue the impact of the 3rd party and Homebrew space and dramatically overvalue the ink in a book that is guaranteed to sell like hotcakes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Someone could certainly make multiple pages worth of tables, sure. And not the actual important bit... 'kay.

There is a LANGUAGE part of the D&D core rulebooks. Whether they were to use a NEW system or an OLD system there would still be a LANGUAGE part of the book. The "Opportunity Cost", therefore, is not "We could have something new if they didn't waste time writing about languages" so much as "How much more words about language would be written?" instead. Which means, yes, it's -just- a matter of how many words they're willing to pay someone to write. 800, 2,000, whatever the count is.

This is not adding a whole new chapter on Boll Weevils or the agricultural use of undead on the Thaymount. Languages is already part of the book.

The part where languages are handled exists pretty much exclusively between 4 and 5. Grabbing writers and assigning writing. Which is pretty much the only part the designers and writers take part in, unless something gets bounced back to them for not being up to standard.

That is, pretty much exclusively, the part where the writers do anything.

Everyone's already going to buy the PHB and DMG so it doesn't really matter how much of the userbase uses that particular rule, much like Encumbrance which is ignored almost universally and is still in the book.

This is not a big "Business Decision" where the couple hundred bucks to pay a writer to write a small section of the book is going to wind up costing WotC Millions down the road. Or where people will refuse to buy the book because they don't like changing up how Language works away from Race Languages.

Well. There -will- be people like that. But, really, there's people like that about literally ANYTHING you write in the books, so it's a "Can't please 'em all" write off.

I don't see that in any of the posts we've been doing but... what about it? Comprehend Languages and Tongues breaks language no matter what, so why worry that it would do it to a different language system than "Common + Races"?

"Detailed" language system... I don't think you've seen my actual intention.

And because it doesn't matter if I publish the most perfect and widely used language system in the 3rd Party space, if it's not in the PHB most players won't be aware of it, and will continue to use the terrible "Race Language" structure.

Also... I've written core material for Level Up/A5e, 3rd Party material for Purple Martin Games and Josh Gentry, published my own book which is the biggest single book in the A5e 3rd party space, had articles in the Gate Pass Gazette and EN5ider.

A Million copies, though? That's Paizo and WotC territory. Not a small 3rd party publisher.

Why do you believe that a language structure that isn't "Common + Races" is "Detailed"?

Why do you believe that having any language structure that isn't "Common + Races" is exclusive of additional character options?

I disagree. Both that it's a "Bad Business Decision" since anything in the PHB is going to sell regardless of whether it costs them $150 or $280...

And it's a terrible opportunity for Homebrew because while you can do interesting stuff in your own settings (And I do use a simple language system in my settings that is different from Common+Races) it won't touch the cultural weight or momentum of whatever the PHB says.

I think you overvalue the impact of the 3rd party and Homebrew space and dramatically overvalue the ink in a book that is guaranteed to sell like hotcakes.

I have a "devil's advocate" question: why is it important to you that the cultural weight and momentum of official D&D be shifted in this manner? Why can't awesome optional rules like this live in 3pp, instead of needing to be in the best-selling book? Where they exist doesn't affect you or your table, and as you say you've published many 3pp products that get your ideas out to the public. Would it not be more prudent just to let WotC and do its own thing for those who want it, and the rest of us go another way?

 

[Steampunkette]

I have a "devil's advocate" question: why is it important to you that the cultural weight and momentum of official D&D be shifted in this manner? Why can't awesome optional rules like this live in 3pp, instead of needing to be in the best-selling book? Where they exist doesn't affect you or your table, and as you say you've published many 3pp products that get your ideas out to the public. Would it not be more prudent just to let WotC and do its own thing for those who want it, and the rest of us go another way?

Because language in D&D sucks.

Both mechanically and narratively. And it's one more lingering thread to the idea that races are monolithic and biologically dedicated to a specific identity.

Language in D&D and any TTRPG which has language is going to be a core element of a given setting. And due to the mandates of the core system, it's going to be "Common+Race", regardless of the setting.

Much like how 5e declared the "Weave" was just how magic worked everywhere forever. Which is great for Faerun and nonsensical for Athas.

As far as WotC doing it's own thing and us going our own way: Yeah, that's what's going to happen 99 times out of 100. But we'd be fools to not recognize that the TTRPG impact of any 3rd Party publisher is going to be absolutely dwarfed by the 600lbs gorilla that is D&D.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, I make a supplement which includes my language setup as a "5e Compatible" book. And it sells a MILLION copies. That would be huge beyond words.

Now how many 3rd party publishers are going to use that system in their own 3rd party works? Will Green Ronin's next campaign setting use Steampunkette's Language system, thus promoting my book and essentially requiring that anyone who wants to use Green Ronin's new campaign setting buy my book in addition to the PHB/DMG/MM from WotC?

Hell no. That's not how 3rd party production works. Green Ronin -could- make their own slightly different language system, sure. Or they could just leave languages like they work in the PHB and not bother with it.

One of those things costs a tiny bit of money. One of those things costs no money.

So yeah. If WotC doesn't do it in some future PHB, it won't get changed. No matter how big an impact any 3rd party publisher makes. Y'all're wildly overestimating the impact of 3rd party publishers on the cultural zeitgeist.

 

[Lanefan]

I have to ask, particularly after the topic of Westron in the old Arnor/Gondor stomping grounds, if the vast majority of D&D campaigns take place in a relatively small geographic environment, then what's the practical difference between PC/NPC being mutually intelligible through local language and being mutually intelligible via Common? Isn't "Common" essentially the dominant language, in your case, locally?

To the bolded: is that in fact the case?

If yes, then you're quite right: the languages used aren't going to change much across the campaign area. Dwarvish here will be very close to Dwarvish there, "Goblin" here will be much alike "Goblin" there, and so on including the local Human tongue and Common.

But I'm not sure the bolded is necessarily the case for a great many campaigns that get beyond about 5th level or so and start to do any significant travelling (which IME it's almost guaranteed that they will).

If we look at modern Europe as an example, in most places if you go 200 miles in any direction the people will be speaking a different language. The same would have been true in pre-colonial British Columbia; there's still well over 30 (google says 35) different First Nations languages/dialects actively in use in BC today, I've no idea how many more have died out since colonization but the same principle would be true in any case: go 200 miles and you're in a different language zone.

 

[Lanefan]

And you think a detailed language system would be more popular than character options? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every survey done here on ENWorld or by WotC point to more character options always being one of the top wants?

A detailed (and, ideally, edition-agnostic) language system or framework is something that really only has to be done once. Why not do it that once and call it done?

Character options never end.

I stand by my point, adding a detailed language system would be a bad business decision for WotC to spend any words on. But it's a great opportunity for homebrew. And even a good opportunity to publish on the DMsGuild.

DMs building their own homebrew settings will still have to take the "official" detailed language system and tweak it to suit the specific settings they're building. What a published framework would do is save them all the work of having to start from scratch every time.

 

[Lanefan]

Not who you asked, but:

How does this play out at the table? And do your parties have access to magic to translate?

Sometimes. Other times they might have to go find or recruit or hire an NPC translator.

If so, is it a limited resource?

If by spell, it's limited: the translation spells don't last very long and they only get so many slots per day to cast 'em. If by device, it's usually always-on; though some devices are limited in coverage e.g. one of my PCs has a device that allows speech translation for Human languages only (in effect, it gives me knowledge of all Human languages but if a Human speaks Elvish to me I'm still hosed).

Do languages become a puzzle to solve or a road block?

Both, at different times.

Or just another McGuffin to go seek?

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to translation devices, or new languages, or ???

 

[Lanefan]

I have a "devil's advocate" question: why is it important to you that the cultural weight and momentum of official D&D be shifted in this manner? Why can't awesome optional rules like this live in 3pp, instead of needing to be in the best-selling book?

Because if they're not in the best-selling book 95+% of the playerbase will never see them.

Keep in mind that we (as in nearly everyone in this forum) are quite unusual in the hobby in that we a) know and-or care that 3pp stuff even exists and b) are willing to look at any of it.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I've hosted a number of exchange students. The significant majority have been Italian. One of my last exchange students knew Italian (National), Neopolitan (Regional), some Sicillian (Regional), and could recognize and speak a few words of Bari (Local). If he needed to travel to Pisa or Venice and communicate with someone who didn't know Italian* he would be able to do so partially with the Pisan, but not with the Venetian. There is a similar foreign influence with Neapolitan and Tuscan, but the influence is very different with Venice.

Here's a rather interesting video about the variety of Italian language. What Language is Spoken in Italy?

*Rather possible, really. Italian as a language itself is very young and constructed. Many people over 60 never bothered to learn.

 

[Voadam]

If by spell, it's limited: the translation spells don't last very long and they only get so many slots per day to cast 'em. I

Comprehend languages in 5e is a first level ritual spell. That means if you have it prepared you can cast it with a 10 minute casting time without expending a slot. And if you are a wizard you can do that out of your spellbook without preparing it. And it lasts 1 hour.

It however does not let you talk to anyone, just understand.