languages

[CCamfield]

How many points do characters who automatically start with multiple languages get? (e.g. Elves' Elven and Common)

Throw-away idea I thought I'd throw out: different languages sometimes share the same alphabet. It's probably easier in general to learn to read a second language than if you've already learned to read one. You could grant a 1 LP break in the cost to read a language, if you already know how to read a language using the same alphabet at level 2 or 3.

 

[Heretic Apostate]

@CCamfield: How about, instead, getting a synergy bonus of +1 on read/write for written languages that use the same alphabet?

However, consider that Polish and English use the same alphabet, and you'll see that isn't necessarily so. (Many of what we consider to be consonants, the Polish consider to be vowels. Of course, Polish apparently is much more phonetic than English--each letter or series of letters sound the same, unlike in English where cough and through are pronounced differently--so it'd be an easier language to learn...)

Maybe give bonuses for languages from the same family group? For instance, German and English.

 

[Arkhandus]

Here's how I'm planning to handle languages in my next campaign......

Languages: Remove the Speak Language skill and replace with a
special Language mechanic. Any class that normally has Speak
Language as a class skill may spend skill points at any of those
class levels for a like number of anguage Points. For any class
level which does not have Speak Language as a class skill, the
character may spend skill points for half as many Language
Points. Language Points must be spent as soon as they are
gained. Each Language Point is spent on either Verbal Language
Mastery or Written Language Mastery, and each time a particular
language must be chosen. Each character would begin with
Verbal Language Mastery 3 in each of their racial automatic
languages, and Verbal Language Mastery 2 in each of their
1st-level bonus languages for high Intelligence. Any class or
ability that would normally grant a new language known instead
grants either Verbal Language Mastery 3 or Written Language
Mastery 3 with that language (character's choice). At 1st-level,
if the character would have been literate under the normal rules
(either from a racial benefit, class benefit, or skill point expenditure),
they instead begin with Written Language Mastery in each 1st-
level racial automatic language and each 1st-level bonus language
from high Intelligence, equal to their Verbal Language Mastery in
that language.

Gaining either Verbal or Written Language Mastery otherwise
with any given language requires the expenditure of Language
Points. However, a character may have fractional or incomplete
points of Language Mastery with any language, but these
fractional or incomplete points do not count when determining
how much Mastery the character has in the language. It generally
costs 1 Language Point to gain 1 point of Verbal or Written
Language Mastery in a particular language, but rare or nearly-
forgotten languages cost twice as many Language Points per
Mastery point. The cost is reduced by half for languages which
are fairly similar (DM's judgement) to those the character already
has Language Mastery 3 or better with, of the appropriate type.
This all assumes the character can learn from one or more teachers
with at least the desired amount of Mastery, of the appropriate type.

Without a teacher, the character needs some other significant
source or sources to learn the language from, such as an extensive
series of tablets or scrolls, or a couple of varied books, or one large
tome. Also, without a teacher, the character cannot gain any Verbal
Language Mastery for the language unless they have a verbal source
to study, and cannot gain any Written Language Mastery with the
language unless they have a written source to study. The cost in
Language Points to learn any language without a teacher is doubled
(if the language is also rare or nearly-forgotten, remember that two
doublings is a tripling).

The table below is a general guideline for how fluent a character
is in any given language. A character may know a few words,
phrases, and such that are more complex than indicated by their
fluency, but only at the DM's discretion, and such exceptions are
likely just words and phrases related to the character's interests
or profession. No particular Verbal Language Mastery may go
beyond Mastery 5, and the same goes for Written Language
Mastery. In general, if any character or NPC interacts with
another character or NPC of higher Language Mastery (Verbal
or Written, as appropriate to the type of interaction), the one
with lower Language Mastery will likely suffer a penalty on any
social interaction checks regarding the individual of higher
Language Mastery. Typically, the penalty will be around -2 per
point of difference in Language Mastery.

[i][size=2][i][size=1]Language  Degree Of[/size][/i]
[i][size=1]Mastery	  Fluency[/size][/i]
[/i][size=1][b]1[/b]	  Poor grasp of alphabet (if Written Mastery),[/size]
[size=1]	  can barely [/size][size=1]understand/convey simple concepts[/size]
[size=1]	  only, poor [/size][size=1]script/pronunciation, rough/heavy[/size]
[size=1]	  accent if not a native.[/size]
 
[size=1][b]2[/b]	  Knows alphabet (if Written Mastery), can[/size]
[size=1]	  understand/convey [/size][size=1]simple concepts, can barely[/size]
[size=1]	  understand/convey common [/size][size=1]concepts, decent[/size]
[size=1]	  script/pronunciation, moderate accent i[/size][size=1]f not[/size]
[size=1]	  a native.[/size]
 
[size=1][b]3[/b]	  Knows alphabet (if Written Mastery), can[/size]
[size=1]	  understand/convey [/size][size=1]simple and common concepts,[/size]
[size=1]	  can barely understand/convey [/size][size=1]complex/uncommon[/size]
[size=1]	  concepts, average script/pronunciation, [/size][size=1]slight[/size]
[size=1]	  accent if not a native.[/size]
 
[size=1][b]4[/b]	  Knows alphabet (if Written Mastery), can[/size]
[size=1]	  understand/convey [/size][size=1]most concepts, can barely[/size]
[size=1]	  understand/convey obscure/rare [/size][size=1]concepts, good[/size]
[size=1]	  script/pronunciation.[/size]
 
[size=1][b]5[/b]	  Perfect fluency (of the appropriate sort, be it[/size]
[size=1]	  Written Mastery [/size][size=1]or Verbal Mastery).[/size]
[/size]

 

[Red Baron]

This is the Language skill from the EverQuest rpg. (I know the formatting of the little table will screw up, but it should still be comprehensible.) It's quite simple, works well, and is easily portable to other games/settings.

Language (Int) [Trained]
Characters begin the game with 4 (or 3 if the character is a troll or ogre) ranks in one or more native languages, and can buy more ranks in Language, just like any other skill. Having 1 rank in a particular language means the character can speak a few simple words and phrases, while having 2 ranks means the character can construct and comprehend basic sentences. With 3 ranks, the character can easily communicate most simple concepts. At 4 ranks, the character is as fluent as an average native speaker (though he may still have an accent). With 5 or more ranks, the character begins to understand the origins of various words and gain a scholarly knowledge of obscure points of linguistics, and is capable of masking a foreign accent. It is possible to have more than 5 ranks in a language, but no real benefit is gained for doing so unless perhaps one is a translator or the like.

Player characters are assumed to be literate in any language they speak (the character’s Language ranks apply to both spoken and written language), though a player may choose to make her character illiterate if she so chooses.

Check: Speakers with 3 or more ranks in a language generally don’t need to make language checks to hold simple, casual conversation with other speakers who also have 3 or more ranks. (If a character is straining to overhear a conversation, that’s a Listen check.) However, characters with little skill in a language or fluent listeners trying to make sense of broken speech are generally required to make a Language check to communicate or grasp ideas of any complexity. Total the number of ranks of the given language that any two speakers have between them, and consult the table below for the appropriate DC.

The Speakers: DC to Convey Complex Idea
Have 3 or fewer ranks between them 20
Have 4–5 ranks between them 15
Have 6 or more ranks between them 10
Are actively trying to communicate –2*
Are fluent in similar dialects (e.g. Elvish and Elder Elvish) +2**
*Lower the applicable DC by this amount.
**This is a competence bonus granted to both characters’ checks.

Language skill becomes very important in conjunction with language-dependent skills such as Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, Read Lips, or Sense Motive, which often require that a character understand or be understood, as described in each of those skills. The Taunt skill is not technically language dependent, although a taunted target’s ability to understand the taunter is a factor in the success or failure of the taunt, as described in that skill’s description. Under specific circumstances, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, and Trade Skill may all require Language checks as well, at the GM’s discretion. Language checks made in conjunction with any of the above skills are almost always considered free actions.

A character with 5 or more ranks in a language can also attempt to discern whether another speaker is truly a native. This is an opposed Language check. If the listener succeeds, and the speaker is not a native, this information is discovered. If it’s truly important, the GM may make this roll.

Retry: Characters attempting to understand each other may retry as often as they wish, subject only to the limits of time and patience. Once a character has missed a roll to decipher a particular statement or concept, however, she cannot try again.

Special: A character with 5 or more ranks in any Language gets a +2 synergy bonus to Read Lips checks involving that tongue.

 

[Terath Ninir]

One thing I was thinking of is that a language doesn't exist in a vacuum. A language comes with an attached culture -- or even more than one culture, theses days. (Except stuff like Esperanto -- but all the created "perfect languages" have failed because they have no culture as part of it.)

So it would be possible, really, to have languages as full skills. You're not just showing how many obscure words a character knows. The Elven language, for instance, would come with information on their culture, countries, history, etc. -- basically a whole Knowledge skill on the elves.

Now, I can see this as not being an option for all games, but it could be helpful for many. Imagine a ranger who learns Giant, Orc, and Goblin. He would know a great deal of information, not just on their language, but their culture. So if he spots a trap set up in the wilderness, he could tell it was made by the Bloody Tampon tribe of orcs, and know how tough they are, and what sort of encounter he will have with them. (On a successful roll, of course.)

Like I said, not for everyone. But it could be useful for some games, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[der_kluge]

I like these approaches. The language system I use in my game is that language works just like a regular skill 1-20 ranks.

All characters start with 10 ranks in their language. 10 ranks in considered fluent. There isn't any reason to go above 10 ranks unless you're a poet, a lawyer, or Shakespeare.

If you have 5 ranks in a language you can 'take 10' and if you speak slowly, and work at it a bit, you can communicate anything you need to and have people understand you - assuming you aren't being rushed.

Some classes have bonus skill points to languages like clerics to Celestial, and rogues to thieves cant, etc.

Having ranks in a language automatically means that you're literate in that language, except for Barbarians who aren't automatically literate.

Well, that's the gist of it. I really like BB's system.

 

[Beholder Bob]

die_kluge

Thank you very much!