Large gaming group challenge ratings

[Gilladian]

I've never thought that CR was very accurate, and I tend to be very rough in using it as a guide to encounter building; but from my experience, I would say a group of 4 npc characters, built at "PC point value" but equipped as npcs, will provide a fairly middling encounter for a 4 pc party of the same level.

Give the NPCs surprise, make them "aware" of how the PCs typically fight, and tailor their capabilities to be slightly above standard effectiveness vs the PCs (ie if a PC is known to have a resistance to fire, giving the npc a wand of frost instead of a necklace of fireballs), and you can have a nice challenge that may stretch the party a bit.

Give the NPCs standard PC level equipment, let them really ambush the party, and tailor them to know and exploit EVERY weakness of the party, and that same npc group can lay the smackdown pretty thoroughly (at least for a while). Eventually, the PCs are still likely to triumph, if only because they have more brains working on the problem in their group than the DM does on his side of the wall.

 

[Rhun]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought of CR as lvl.
EG: In my game I sent a displacer beast (CR: 7) and 5 Blink Dogs (CR: 2).
Against 4 lvl4 champs.
7 + (2x5) = 17
4x4 = 16.

You are wrong. This is not the proper way to figure Encounter Level. 5 Blink Dogs and a Displace Beast comes out to between a CR 8 to 9 encounter, which is an overpowering encounter for a standard 4th level party. A CR is how a single creature of that type matches up against 4 PCs of the same level. So a Displacer Beast (CR7) is an even match for four Level 7 PCs.

Reference page 48 of the DMG.

 

[Arkhandus]

Also........ Blink Dogs and Displacer Beasts are supposed to be enemies. A pack of Blink Dogs would maul the lone Displacer Beast and leave the PCs alone.

As far as the large-party advice goes, I'd just echo what some others have said about just increasing the number of opponents or adding terrain/weather/obstacle/trap complications to keep things suitably challenging but not overpowering. Using a single opponent of moderately higher CR is also fine, but don't throw anything too strong at them; 8 low-level PCs would probably get destroyed by a single monster of twice their individual levels in CR (like a young adult green dragon against 8 PCs of 6th-level; it would just wipe the floor with them by virtue of its high fear DC, high breath weapon damage, few hundred HP, great save bonuses, high AC, flight, damage reduction, and spells; all it takes is one Mage Armor or Shield spell and the dragon would be virtually invulnerable to 6th-level PCs).

And remember that some monsters' CR is based on their special abilities; an invisible monster is given its CR based on the likelihood that PCs of that level may have See Invisibility spells or Dust of Appearance or Glitterdust or Faerie Fire, for example, while a Swarm is given its CR based on the likelihood that PCs of that level may have enough area-attack spells or whatnot to destroy it.

 

[Rhun]

Also........ Blink Dogs and Displacer Beasts are supposed to be enemies. A pack of Blink Dogs would maul the lone Displacer Beast and leave the PCs alone.

Well, there is that too.

 

[Kazy]

You are wrong. This is not the proper way to figure Encounter Level. 5 Blink Dogs and a Displace Beast comes out to between a CR 8 to 9 encounter, which is an overpowering encounter for a standard 4th level party. A CR is how a single creature of that type matches up against 4 PCs of the same level. So a Displacer Beast (CR7) is an even match for four Level 7 PCs.

Reference page 48 of the DMG.

Even? o.o
Dude, a single Displacer beast would've gotten killed in seconds.
At least in my party. Everyone's got incredible dice T_T I think the lowest stat is a 14 on the Wiz's STR score T_T

Also........ Blink Dogs and Displacer Beasts are supposed to be enemies. A pack of Blink Dogs would maul the lone Displacer Beast and leave the PCs alone.

Animals with alignment. I don't like that. :c

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Animals with alignment. I don't like that. :c

Magical Beasts with decent Int scores.

Besides, animals have natural enemies in nature in real life. No reason that should change in a fantasy setting.

 

[Rhun]

Even? o.o
Dude, a single Displacer beast would've gotten killed in seconds.
At least in my party. Everyone's got incredible dice T_T I think the lowest stat is a 14 on the Wiz's STR score T_T

Well see...ECL is based on a party of 4 PCs, built with (I think) 24 point-buy. So if your PCs have significantly higher ability scores, their party level is higher than expected. I've ran into this in some of my games. High ability scores can be worth as much as an extra level or two in practice. So your 4 (Level 4) PCs may actually be about as strong as what the game would expect a 6th level party to be.

It certainly isn't an exact science.

 

[Kazy]

Mkay. Thanks for the correction Rhun.

 

[Arkhandus]

Even? o.o
Dude, a single Displacer beast would've gotten killed in seconds.
At least in my party. Everyone's got incredible dice T_T I think the lowest stat is a 14 on the Wiz's STR score T_T

Animals with alignment. I don't like that. :c

Errmmm..........Blink Dogs and Displacer Beasts are rather intelligent Magical Beasts. Blink Dogs moreso than Displacer Beasts, but both are of humanoid intellect.

Also, it says right in their descriptions in the Monster Manual that the two are natural enemies. It's not so much about alignment. It's more like the animosity between orcs and elves, or dwarves and goblins, or kobolds and gnomes. Or, y'know, cats and dogs, to a lesser extent. -_-

Mind you, if you only look at the SRD, it doesn't include such information about the creatures because the SRD is strictly limited to rules and basic data, not full descriptions of any race, class, or monster (and Displacer Beasts aren't in the SRD at all due to being declared as Product Identity of D&D or whatever). But if you crack open a Monster Manual, you'll see.

"Blink dogs and displacer beasts are natural enemies."
"Displacer beasts favor small game but will eat anything they can catch. They regard all other creatures as prey and tend to attack anything they meet. They have a deep-seated hatred of blink dogs, and the two attack each other ruthlessly when their paths cross."
To quote a small passage from their entries in the Monster Manual.

(just to clear that up)

And yeah, high ability scores are generally worth +1 or +2 CR depending on how high they are, for monsters (IIRC a monster with the elite array of ability scores is supposed to be +1 CR, but I'm not quite sure off the top of my head), so PCs with generally high ability scores (higher than 25 point buy equivalent, since that's the default assumption for PCs in 3.x) should probably be considered 1 level higher (or 2, if they have really awesome stats) than normal for purposes of determining what kind of challenge you need to throw at 'em. Large groups can be tricky to challenge appropriately, but it's easiest to just use a slightly larger number of enemies.

 

[Rhun]

And yeah, high ability scores are generally worth +1 or +2 CR depending on how high they are, for monsters (IIRC a monster with the elite array of ability scores is supposed to be +1 CR, but I'm not quite sure off the top of my head), so PCs with generally high ability scores (higher than 25 point buy equivalent, since that's the default assumption for PCs in 3.x) should probably be considered 1 level higher (or 2, if they have really awesome stats) than normal for purposes of determining what kind of challenge you need to throw at 'em. Large groups can be tricky to challenge appropriately, but it's easiest to just use a slightly larger number of enemies.

If the lowest stat in the party is the wizard's STR of 14, I'm guessing they are coming out at least 45+ point buy equivalent. So I'd certainly treat the group as 2 levels higher than standard for the purpose of challenging them and awarding experience.