Lashing Flail question

[keterys]

Well, fighters use MBAs for combat challenge and opportunity attacks, and sliding and proning are immensely useful on either since you can prevent attacks entirely, hand out penalties to hit, and/or shut down shift and charge.

 

[Neverfate]

Lashing Flail is NOT a power, and it's the effect doing the sliding.

I have no problem if people do that in games I play or run, but that's not the same as how the rules actually work.

At no point does Lashing Flail have to be a power for this to work, and no one suggested that. It's a feat that augments the way a preexisting power (Basic Attack) works.

Your MBA with a flail now a power that slides 1. It's a power, with an slide effect. The Staggering enhancement works on precisely that.

Also note that Lashing Flail does not say, "After hitting with a melee basic attack, you can slide the target 1 square as a free action". That wouldn't work and there are a lot of instances in the game were both cases come up.

 

[DracoSuave]

Does it say "Melee Basic Attacks also push 1 on a successful hit" or does it say "When you hit with a melee basic attack, push the target one square."

In the first, it's an augment, in the second, it's a trigger.

If it's a trigger, then it's Lashing Flail providing the push effect, not Melee Basic Attack.

If Lashing Flail is providing the push effect, then it's not a power delivering the push.

 

[treex]

This thread reminds me of that other thread where there was this user who was reasoning that you would suffer various penalties (physically, like using your weapons and powers) while shape shifting from this paragon path power (Blood of the Moon, or something.)

But that isn't quite the same...anyway, I hope that I can show you what I visualize...with this handy-dandy list!

1. HIT with Melee Basic Attack.
2. Lashing Flail activates.
3. Lashing Flail slides target.
4. Staggering does not activate because it is Lashing Flail that slid the target.

So the MBA and Lashng Flail are two separate...erm...actions...functions...
Ching chong ling long ting tong, I can't think of the word. Cuuuuuuurses.

 

[keterys]

Yep, definitely table variation. For comparison, the other feats from the identical design space (same book, same structure, just for the other weapon groups) - Deft Blade, Hammer Shock, Impaling Spear, Piercing Pick, Wicked Blade... _all_ modify the melee basic attack. If they wanted to separate them for some reason (and usually there's no reason to do so), they should have made it a free action like they did Hammer Hands. In the meantime, there's plenty of potential intent and an abundance of whocares to let DMs rule however they want

 

[Neverfate]

The Staggering property:

"When you use a power with the weapon keyword that slides a target, you can add this weapon's enhancement bonus to the number of squares the target slide."

and Lashing Flail:

"Whenever you use a flail to hit an enemy with a melee basic attack, you can slide than enemy 1 square"

Because of the way the Staggering property can be read that "power with a weapon key word" and "that slides target" don't have to derive from the same power (say, Footwork Lure). The slide could come from another source, including an effect that an leader can bestow during combat. Lashing Flail happens to make "that slides a target" possible.

I'm not sure what the intent is, but I know how it could be read and therefore can be used legally. As long as you adhere to both clauses of the Staggering property (melee weapon power and slides target) this combo is legal. If Lashing Flail said you could slide that target as a free action after the attack, than it would not work.