D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

pemerton

Legend
If showing a monster's stats is what works to achieve the desired result, then I'd say to do it. I don't know if that would work for my group...but I also don't know if Orcus is the best example. He immediately evokes some kind of response in players, most of the time at least.

But what about an unknown entity that is just being introduced? Sure, you could reveal his stats to make the players realize the threat he poses...but I also think that removes the mystery. I find it better to use the narrative element of the game to establish the threat level of an enemy.

<snip>

I do think that the mechanics of the game should be considered. However, I feel like such mechanics should be applicable to the situation. Or should in some way be observable to the characters in order to justify the players' knowing of it.
As I see it, the sorts of issues being discussed in this thread arise when the narrative element and the mechanical element come apart.

For instance, as I understand [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]'s complaint, the narrative element of the Marilith promises something that the stablocks don't deliver. [MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION] had a similar sort of experience with 4e (fortunately for me, this hasn't happened to my group).

When this sort of dissonance occurs - for instance, the flavour text says that the Marilith is such-and-such a thing (say, a threat to all but the mightiest of heroes), and then in play it turns out differently (the ongoing ficiton of the game isnt framing the PCs as the mightiest of heroes, and yet they easily defeat a Marilith with really very little effort at all) - then what is to be done?

I don't think just telling those experiencing the dissonance that they're doing it wrong, or that they're metagaming too much, is very helpful. (Which is what some posters in this thread seem to be saying.) After all, if the mechanics and narrative complemented one another, then this sort of metagaming wouldn't matter - it would just reinforce the narrative.

I want the players to be unsure in this case...so I keep them in the dark.

I think my main point about this is that I try to have enough variety in my encounters, and with my villains, that I don't want my players to ever assume that because it is an ogre they're facing, that it must be the one straight out of the MM and that they therefore know it's abilities.

<snip>

As for player choice, I don't want to take it away or have it be meaningless. Indeed, quite the opposite. When I put them in a situation where fighting will surely lead to their doom, I do my very best to make that clear to them. I provide at least two other options (at the very most basic, there is always "talk" or "run" at least) for them to choose in lieu of combat.
My own experience, in the play of my own game, is that "mystery" in the sense of how many levels/HD, or damage per hit, is not that big a contriubutor to the drama of the game. The sort of suspense that I personally find more effective is suspense as to motivations, or (in combat) as to the broader tactical situation (eg are there reinforcements?).

An example of the sort of tactical uncertainty that I have found works for me is in this post - what starts as a fight against hobgoblin wyvern riders - with tactical uncertainy resultiing from the separation of the PCs on the battlefield - escalates as a hobgoblin phalanx marches down from the ridge, and then the hobgoblins unleash their chained chimera, and then the three-headed firedrake Calastryx flies onto the scene to find out what is being done to her child, and then - after defeating Calastryx - the attempt to harness her magical power attracts the attention of a pack of mooncalves.

A broad knowledge of a creature's capabilities can often enhance this sort of supsense - if the players know, for instance, that a creature has the ability to blast them with a gaze and reduce them to 0 hp (in 4e, bodaks have this ability against a target suffering the weakened condition), then they start having to plan around avoiding getting blasted in this way, which becomes a source of doubt and threat as the encounter unfolds. Other times, I find it better to leave things hinted at - eg when the PCs fought Calasytryx they knew that there would be some significance to her having three heads, but they weren't entirely sure what that would be - they got a shock when she grew another head rather than having one chopped off! This is a case where I wouldn't casually share the stat block with the players (although if a player used an ability to learn it, I would dutifully tell them).

For my group, the framing of a situation such that fighting will surely lead to the PCs' doom and I, as GM, make that clear to the players, probably wouldn't work, because it would be putting the GM rather than the players too much in the driving seat of the plot. If the PCs have overreached, I prefer that to be something that emerges out of the mechanical resolution of the situation. (Eg in my Burning Wheel game, a PC was in the catacombs under the city of Hardby, hunting down Chemosh cultists. At first he was beating up on them, but then they got the upper hand, and so he was taken down - and regained consciousness inside an iron maiden, which was then the starting point for the next session.)

I have just found that because my games do tend to be combat heavy, the players sometimes just become conditioned to treat fighting as their first option.
I tend to find the mechanics, and the story/flavour they give rise to and that hangs around them, shape this. So the 4e games tend to be have a fair bit of combat, as 4e tends to emphasise combat as the ultimate mode for resolving conflicts. But my RM games in the past, and my BW game, have less combat, as the mechanical resources that the players have for non-combat, and the systems to adjudicate these, are just as robust as the combat mechanics.

I certainly have combat-free or sessions in 4e - but these tend to be the outcome of player/PC motivations in relation to the session, rather than of judgments about whom the PCs could or could not successfully hope to kill.
 

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pemerton

Legend
In case you missed it, I was refering to published material. Of course hundreds (if not thousands) of DMs were running free-form campaing well before that (including myself) but published material was not using the free-form campaing style.
Keep on the Borderlands. The Grand Duchy of Karameikos in the back of the Cook/Marsh Expert book. The Greyhawk folio.

These things all predate the FR/2nd ed stuff that you mentioned.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] and other DMs - Here's a quick random table to make it quick and easy to buff the monsters. I took many of the traits in the chart in the DMG, added in some class abilities and feats and came up with 100 ways to modify a monster.

I hope this helps.

I really want to make it a complete guide with descriptive text, suggestions as to how each mod will modify CR, etc., but alas, I don't have the time.


d100 Modify Your Monster

1 Action Surge (Fighter)
2 Advantage on Save or Saves
3 Aggressive (Orc)
4 Ambusher (Dopelganger)
5 Anti-Magic Ray/Aura (Beholder)
6 Arcane Ward (Abjuration Wizard)
7 Assassinate (Rogue)
8 Aura of Courage (Paladin)
9 Aura of Fire, Cold, Necrotic, etc. (Lich)
10 Aura of Protection (Paladin)
11 Bardic Inspiration (Bonus Action)
12 Benign Transposition (Conjuration Wizard)
13 Better Armor
14 Blindsense (Grimlock)
15 Blood Frenzy (Sahuagin)
16 Bonus to Attack Damage (5, 10)
17 Breath Weapon (Dragon)
18 Cantrip user
19 Chameleon Skin (Troglodyte)
20 Charger (Feat)
21 Class Levels or Spellcaster
22 Cunning Action (Rogue)
23 Cutting Words (Bard)
24 Damage Absorption (Flesh Golem)
25 Damage Transfer (Darkmantle)
26 Dark One's Blessing (Warlock)
27 Dark One's Luck (Warlock)
28 Death Burst (Magmin)
29 Deflect Missiles (Monk)
30 Entropic Ward (Warlock)
31 Ethereal/Phase (Bonus Action)
32 Evasion (Rogue/Monk)
33 Extra Attack
34 Fey Presence (Warlock)
35 Fighting Style, Archery
36 Fighting Style, Defense
37 Fighting Style, Dueling
38 Fighting Style, Protection
39 Flurry of Blows (Monk)
40 Flyby Attack (Peryton)/Mobile (Feat)
41 Frightful Presence/Fear Aura (Dragon)
42 Gaze (Petrify, Damage, Fear, Death, etc.)
43 Grapple/Constrict (Constrictor Snake)
44 Guided Strike (2/day)
45 Healer (Feat)
46 Hide in Plain Sight (Ranger)
47 Holy/Unholy Strike (extra damage)
48 Hunter's Mark (Ranger)
49 Hypnotic Gaze (Enchantment Wizard)
50 Immunity (choose)
51 Incorporal (Undead)
52 Inspiring Leader (Feat)
53 Lay On Hands (Paladin)
54 Leadership (Hobgoblin Captain)
55 Legendary Resistance
56 Life Drain (Wraith)
57 Lucky (Feat)
58 Mage Slayer (Feat)
59 Magic Resistance (Balor)
60 Martial Advantage (Hobgoblin)
61 Max Hit Points
62 Misty Escape (Warlock)
63 Otherworldly Perception (Kuo-Toa)/Alert (Feat)
64 Pack Tactics (Kobold)
65 Parry (Hobgoblin Warlord)
66 Patient Defense (Monk)
67 Possession (Ghost)
68 Pounce (Lion)
69 Projected Ward (Abjuration Wizard)
70 Rampage (Gnoll)
71 Read Thoughts (Doppelganger)
72 Reckless Attack (Minotaur)
73 Regeneration (Troll)
74 Rope and Reel (Roper)
75 Second Wind (Fighter)
76 Sentinal (Feat)
77 Shadow Stealth (Monk, Shadow)
78 Shadow Walk (Monk, Shadow)
79 Shapechanger (Werebeast, Druid)
80 Siege Monster (Earth Elemental)
81 Slippery (Kuo-Toa)
82 Spider Climb (Ettercap)
83 Standing Leap (Bullywug)
84 Steadfast (Bearded Devil)
85 Stench (Troglodyte)
86 Step of the Wind (Monk)
87 Stunning Strike (Monk)
88 Superior Invisiblity (Faerie Dragon)
89 Sure-Footed (Dao)
90 Surprise Attack (Sneak Attack)
91 Teleport (Balor)
92 Tunneler (Umber Hulk)
93 Turn Immunity (Revenant)
94 Turn Living (Unholy Cleric)
95 Turn Resistance (Lich)
96 Turn Undead (Cleric)
97 Uncany Dodge (Rogue)
98 Undead Fortitude (Zombie)
99 Warding Flare (Cleric, Light)
100 Web, Web Sense, Web Walker (Giant Spider)
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
@pemerton I agree with a lot of what you say. I think our approach is very similar, with some minor differences in viewpoints.

However, I don't think that was telling anyone that they were "doing it wrong" as you say. Some posters have expressed dissatisfaction with either the rules or with their game, or both. My suggestions were based on this dissatisfaction. Ultimately, if people are satisfied with their game, then they're doing it right, however they're doing it.
 
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Keep on the Borderlands. The Grand Duchy of Karameikos in the back of the Cook/Marsh Expert book. The Greyhawk folio.

These things all predate the FR/2nd ed stuff that you mentioned.

Of these, only KoB is an adventure. The others are campaing setting and they are not campaing adventures as we know it now (like PotA or HotDQ). In no way does KoB do the same job as the FR adventure campaing. Where the DM is encouraged (to a certain extent) to make the players encounter recurring allies/enemies and doing things such as escorting caravans to get to their destination and making more than simple random encounter along the trek.

The wilderness of KoB is barely a form of "outside the dungeon rooms." Once the interaction is done, it's done. Nothing further will develop from these. The main adventure is in the caves. In the FR modules, you have the bare bones of what you have to do and most of the work is in the hand of the DM with a few set dungeons, not unlike 5ed HoTDQ, RoT and PotA. Before the FR (1-3), nothing was close to that.
 

pemerton

Legend
In no way does KoB do the same job as the FR adventure campaing. Where the DM is encouraged (to a certain extent) to make the players encounter recurring allies/enemies and doing things such as escorting caravans to get to their destination and making more than simple random encounter along the trek.

The wilderness of KoB is barely a form of "outside the dungeon rooms." Once the interaction is done, it's done. Nothing further will develop from these. The main adventure is in the caves. In the FR modules, you have the bare bones of what you have to do and most of the work is in the hand of the DM with a few set dungeons, not unlike 5ed HoTDQ, RoT and PotA. Before the FR (1-3), nothing was close to that.
I can only report my own experience. Running KotB around 1988-89 (focusing mostly on the Keep itself, which has a range of NPCs) the result was a campaign in which two multi-class thief PCs (F/Th, Il/Th) ran a sustained operation against the cult of Chemosh (which was the god of the "chaotic" priest in that game).
 

I can only report my own experience. Running KotB around 1988-89 (focusing mostly on the Keep itself, which has a range of NPCs) the result was a campaign in which two multi-class thief PCs (F/Th, Il/Th) ran a sustained operation against the cult of Chemosh (which was the god of the "chaotic" priest in that game).

And that gives more than a few credits to your skills. KoB did not encouraged DM to do that to a large extent. It was meant as a way to further the adventure and push the characters to go to the caves by giving them some revenge reasons to go there (as the chaos priests would try to kill them while they were training between levels) but it was not mandatory to do so. In fact, I suspect that the vast majority just stopped at the caves themselves and never saw the chaos priest hidden in plain sight in the keep. From the looks of it, you used AD&D characters in a Basic module in which you focused on the keep instead of the caves. That was already a step ahead of the norm. we all used B, X, and CM adventures with AD&D but not necessarily this way. Again, kudo on that.
 

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] and other DMs - Here's a quick random table to make it quick and easy to buff the monsters. I took many of the traits in the chart in the DMG, added in some class abilities and feats and came up with 100 ways to modify a monster.

I hope this helps.

I really want to make it a complete guide with descriptive text, suggestions as to how each mod will modify CR, etc., but alas, I don't have the time.


d100 Modify Your Monster

1 Action Surge (Fighter)
2 Advantage on Save or Saves
3 Aggressive (Orc)
4 Ambusher (Dopelganger)
5 Anti-Magic Ray/Aura (Beholder)
6 Arcane Ward (Abjuration Wizard)
7 Assassinate (Rogue)
8 Aura of Courage (Paladin)
9 Aura of Fire, Cold, Necrotic, etc. (Lich)
10 Aura of Protection (Paladin)
11 Bardic Inspiration (Bonus Action)
12 Benign Transposition (Conjuration Wizard)
13 Better Armor
14 Blindsense (Grimlock)
15 Blood Frenzy (Sahuagin)
16 Bonus to Attack Damage (5, 10)
17 Breath Weapon (Dragon)
18 Cantrip user
19 Chameleon Skin (Troglodyte)
20 Charger (Feat)
21 Class Levels or Spellcaster
22 Cunning Action (Rogue)
23 Cutting Words (Bard)
24 Damage Absorption (Flesh Golem)
25 Damage Transfer (Darkmantle)
26 Dark One's Blessing (Warlock)
27 Dark One's Luck (Warlock)
28 Death Burst (Magmin)
29 Deflect Missiles (Monk)
30 Entropic Ward (Warlock)
31 Ethereal/Phase (Bonus Action)
32 Evasion (Rogue/Monk)
33 Extra Attack
34 Fey Presence (Warlock)
35 Fighting Style, Archery
36 Fighting Style, Defense
37 Fighting Style, Dueling
38 Fighting Style, Protection
39 Flurry of Blows (Monk)
40 Flyby Attack (Peryton)/Mobile (Feat)
41 Frightful Presence/Fear Aura (Dragon)
42 Gaze (Petrify, Damage, Fear, Death, etc.)
43 Grapple/Constrict (Constrictor Snake)
44 Guided Strike (2/day)
45 Healer (Feat)
46 Hide in Plain Sight (Ranger)
47 Holy/Unholy Strike (extra damage)
48 Hunter's Mark (Ranger)
49 Hypnotic Gaze (Enchantment Wizard)
50 Immunity (choose)
51 Incorporal (Undead)
52 Inspiring Leader (Feat)
53 Lay On Hands (Paladin)
54 Leadership (Hobgoblin Captain)
55 Legendary Resistance
56 Life Drain (Wraith)
57 Lucky (Feat)
58 Mage Slayer (Feat)
59 Magic Resistance (Balor)
60 Martial Advantage (Hobgoblin)
61 Max Hit Points
62 Misty Escape (Warlock)
63 Otherworldly Perception (Kuo-Toa)/Alert (Feat)
64 Pack Tactics (Kobold)
65 Parry (Hobgoblin Warlord)
66 Patient Defense (Monk)
67 Possession (Ghost)
68 Pounce (Lion)
69 Projected Ward (Abjuration Wizard)
70 Rampage (Gnoll)
71 Read Thoughts (Doppelganger)
72 Reckless Attack (Minotaur)
73 Regeneration (Troll)
74 Rope and Reel (Roper)
75 Second Wind (Fighter)
76 Sentinal (Feat)
77 Shadow Stealth (Monk, Shadow)
78 Shadow Walk (Monk, Shadow)
79 Shapechanger (Werebeast, Druid)
80 Siege Monster (Earth Elemental)
81 Slippery (Kuo-Toa)
82 Spider Climb (Ettercap)
83 Standing Leap (Bullywug)
84 Steadfast (Bearded Devil)
85 Stench (Troglodyte)
86 Step of the Wind (Monk)
87 Stunning Strike (Monk)
88 Superior Invisiblity (Faerie Dragon)
89 Sure-Footed (Dao)
90 Surprise Attack (Sneak Attack)
91 Teleport (Balor)
92 Tunneler (Umber Hulk)
93 Turn Immunity (Revenant)
94 Turn Living (Unholy Cleric)
95 Turn Resistance (Lich)
96 Turn Undead (Cleric)
97 Uncany Dodge (Rogue)
98 Undead Fortitude (Zombie)
99 Warding Flare (Cleric, Light)
100 Web, Web Sense, Web Walker (Giant Spider)

Wall of quote but I thought I could copy back something I wrote earlier to supplement that. One of my friends used what I came up with in his games and it worked out for him too. Here is what I do with groups higher than four.

Single encounter big bad guys
Add 1 feat/ASI per 4 CR (save the first four)
Add 1 legendary action per PC above 4. (can only use 2pts legendary actions once per turn)
Multiply HP by 1 +0.25 per PC above 4.
Add 1.5 AC (round up) per PC above 4.

Here is a modified lich my players defeated at 17th level in a previous campaing.

AC: 17 (natural armor + dex) Now 23 (+1.5 AC x 2 for players number, Staff of power and +1 ring. It could go up to 25 for one attack because of the shield guardian and I am not counting shield. Since shield was an at will power, it became and AC 28 and 30 for one attack)
HP: 135 (18d8 + 54) Now 238 for a 1.5 multiplyer for number of players and tough feat (+36hp).
Spd: 30' (unchanged)
Stats: Unchanged (decided to use feats instead...)
Added: Warcaster, Elemental Adept Fire (that one was a surprise for my players), Tough.
Mage feature added: Shield and Mirror image at will (I counted that one as a feat)
Spell list was changed to reflect the added mage feature and feats.
Cantrip: Removed prestigiditation and added Fire Bolt. Rose number of cantrip to four (as it should be) and added Green Flame blade
Level 1: Removed shield and added disguise self (Lich used it to appear human as she did in her life.)
Level 2: Removed Mirror image and added Misty step instead.

Legendary action Rose to 5 (again 6 players)

Lich was also using Staff Of Power And a Shield Guardian.

Strangely, in that fight, Sharp shooter and GWM feats were not used.
What I love in 5ed is that it can be slightly modified to adapt to a group with minimal effort. That lich took me about 3 minutes to write down.
 

psychophipps

Explorer
One thing driving me nuts a out the stat blocks with the Death Knight and Black Guard entries is the complete lack of non-spell smites. These guys are the baddest of the bad, the twisted souls that have traded a life of service to life and beauty to serve new dark cosmic powers. If the "good guys" can smite stuff to pieces in a Death Nova(tm) of righteous fury, why the hell don't the baddies get the same goodies? My hand-built soon-to-be Death Knight would eat the Black Guards in Volo's for breakfast, for crying out loud.


Sent from my SM-T350 using EN World mobile app
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
@pemerton I agree with a lot of what you say. I think our approach is very similar, with some minor differences in viewpoints.

However, I don't think that was telling anyone that they were "doing it wrong" as you say. Some posters have expressed dissatisfaction with either the rules or with their game, or both. My suggestions were based on this dissatisfaction. Ultimately, if people are satisfied with their game, then they're doing it right, however they're doing it.

Even with the criticism, I like 5E a whole lot better than I did 4E. I still find 5E to be playable and I discarded 4E without looking back. I just haven't quite found the level of modification that suits the way I want to run it. I had been playing 3E/Pathfinder for so long, I knew exactly how to modify it to do what I wanted to do. I'm not there yet with 5E. 5E doesn't quite have the feel I'm looking for, but it's not so far off I can't get the feel I'm looking for. I know if I put time in, I can create the feel I want for my games in terms of long, epic combats with epic monsters that can mechanically accomplish their narrative purpose. I know I can do it without this 6-8 encounter day so many are touting as the holy grail of encounter creation. I don't want any limits on encounter design. I should be able to make any encounter be it one a day or many a day interesting and challenging regardless of the resource level of my players. I will find a way to manage this in 5E.
 

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