Last of Us 2 discussion

[Imaculata]

But do you also see how this feeling is ruined by our perception of Ellie as a player, who is by that time already a brutal murderer? She kills so many people in horrific ways before you reach that part in the story, that her killing a pregnant woman feels pretty irrelevant at that point. It is as if the writers want you to ignore all the killing you've already done. It makes the main characters irrideemable and unlikable.

This was already a bit of a problem in Uncharted, where our likeable protagonist murders his way through hundreds of goons. But at least Uncharted was not very serious in tone. It was a pulp adventure in the style of Indiana Jones. The Last of Us in contrast, takes itself super serious, and this makes the disconnect between gameplay and story more jarring.

I also feel that as a movie, it would have been laughed out of the theaters. The writing is better than in most games, but that's a pretty low bar. I think objectively, it's not that good a story when compared to other media. And the gameplay loops that it relies on are very repetitive and don't have very strong mechanics.

 

[RangerWickett]

I just simply disagree with your claim that the writing is weak. It strikes me as realistic dialogue, which did a pretty good job staying grounded despite you playing a game. And the acting is phenomenal.

However, I have agreed before that the game, frustratingly, does not provide enough means to avoid combat. You can stealth, but the options to distract people get a bit repetitive. But you don't have to kill those people; the game just makes it easier than being non-violent, which I can see as the point.

Even then, when she kills those people, they're out hunting for her, and it can be spun as self-defense.

Basically, as I went through the game, I saw a story where Ellie starts off just wanting revenge against the specific people who killed Joel, and occasionally kills to defend herself. Then Ellie and Dina kill the guy whose face Ellie cut, who was moments away from killing Dina. The first real morally unacceptable act is when Ellie tortures Nora, which shakes her. And then she tries to do that Joel thing to interrogate Owen and Mel, and screws it up, and kills a pregnant woman, which makes her nearly crumble until Tommy and Jesse show up. Clearly she's struggling with this, and I feel empathy for that.

But when it comes to Abby, Ellie - despite being shocked at herself for these other kills - insists on fighting Abby. It's arguably pretty justifiable there: Abby is attacking, and she's defending herself. But during the battle, there's time where Ellie could try to talk you down, and she doesn't. She's clearly pissed.

Where the tragedy comes in is that Ellie loses, and goes home, and then can't shake free of the trauma. It felt moving to me. The feeling was that almost like Ellie going to her death -- and I've had friends grapple with mental anguish, where I've felt powerless to stop them.

So I think the story is great, even if I kind of had to squint my eyes and ignore the gamist intrusions from time to time.

 

[Imaculata]

I just simply disagree with your claim that the writing is weak. It strikes me as realistic dialogue, which did a pretty good job staying grounded despite you playing a game. And the acting is phenomenal.

I agree that the writing of the dialogue is pretty solid (for the most part), but the writing of the story is pretty disappointing. As far as game-acting, I would also agree there are some solid performances here.

But since so much of this game is focused on telling a lineair story, I can't help but be underwhelmed by the story that is there.

 

[Flamestrike]

But do you also see how this feeling is ruined by our perception of Ellie as a player, who is by that time already a brutal murderer? She kills so many people in horrific ways before you reach that part in the story, that her killing a pregnant woman feels pretty irrelevant at that point. It is as if the writers want you to ignore all the killing you've already done. It makes the main characters irrideemable and unlikable.

This was already a bit of a problem in Uncharted, where our likeable protagonist murders his way through hundreds of goons. But at least Uncharted was not very serious in tone. It was a pulp adventure in the style of Indiana Jones. The Last of Us in contrast, takes itself super serious, and this makes the disconnect between gameplay and story more jarring.

I also feel that as a movie, it would have been laughed out of the theaters. The writing is better than in most games, but that's a pretty low bar. I think objectively, it's not that good a story when compared to other media. And the gameplay loops that it relies on are very repetitive and don't have very strong mechanics.

I wholly agree with the disconnect in Uncharted [likeable, rascally swashbuckling Good aligned protagonist] engages in [murder of hundreds of people]. Gunplay in a game that didnt need it.

I dont see it in TLOU2. I mean, Ellies character sheet clearly has an 'E' in the alignment section. She's completely fine with murder, she literally only leaves her hometown to engage in murder (of Abby and her gang), and then... engages in murder (as she said she would do).

While those two killings were sort of in self defence (although I doubt Owen would have killed her had he successfully disarmed her, he seemed to be a Good man) they were two names on her kill list.

Remember; she had just brutally tortured and murdered the female doctor (after intentionally contaminating her with spores) by beating her to death with an iron bar mere hours earlier. She was setting them up for the 'dual interrogation' trick Joel used in the first game (involving brutal murder and torture) and she approvingly commented on this very tactic when she found 2 victims Tommy used it on the day before.

Ellie is well past the point of return by the time she encounters those two.

 

[Flamestrike]

I agree that the writing of the dialogue is pretty solid (for the most part), but the writing of the story is pretty disappointing. As far as game-acting, I would also agree there are some solid performances here.

The look Joel gives at the start of the game in response to Tommys question of 'What did you do?' with reference to his mass murder at the hospital.

At 1:30


Pure evil.

For CGI man, that was amazing.

 

[Zardnaar]

But dogs are not annoying enemies that should be killed. Neither are people. They're more than that, which is what the game is trying to show you here. People are not just faceless redshirts and NPCs to be slaughtered.

If the player (as Ellie) fails to come to that conclusion, it shows how much they miss that central theme.

I actually found it interesting that a lot of people had a harder time killing the dogs (or found it more disturbing), than they did killing people.

Apparently there's a reason.

Dogs trigger the same responses in humans brain as a baby. Cats I think can trigger it as well.

Furry little things are our babies.

Adult humans not so much. Throw in a lot of games involve killing humans it's not hard.

 

[Helldritch]

I played the first one and was enthralled by it. It was fun, morally ambiguous, yes, but it made you think.
The second installment is just about revenge and how bad it is. This is not what a sequel should've been about. Not for The last of us.
It is just a bad game for the fans. Sure the critics loved it. I and a lot of others did not. I am glad that I haven't bought this game. I would've cut the disk in half after Joel's death. I watched the game on twitch. I felt so disapointed and empty at Joel's meaningless death that the rest of the twitch was like a bad dream.

Being forced to play his killer in a futile attempt to make us "feel" her distress is simply not working. It fails miserably at any attempts to feel sympathy or understanding (or at least accept). It would have worked out better IF we would have played her from the begining and IF it had given us the choice of either killing Joel or let him live. For me, the game, story wise, is just a piece of BS.

 

[Imaculata]

Surprisingly, Joel's death is one of the few things in the game that I have no issue with. But the poor lead up to his death, the character assassination of established characters, the oddly placed second act, the grotesque violence and failed message about said violence, THAT bothers me. Also the bugs and poor gameplay. This game is inferior to part 1 in almost every respect, except gunplay and looks.

 

[RangerWickett]

Man, some of y'all just confuse me. The game didn't fail at all to make me empathize with Abby.

I think a lot of folks just naughty word loved Joel from the first game, and they see this game as killing someone they loved. Whereas I came out of the first game really fascinated by Joel as a character, and repulsed by his decision, but in love with the story.

So for me, the sequel is a continuation of what I loved: a story about flawed people doing bad things in a world that steers them toward violence, and the struggle to keep your humanity amid that. I in no way felt any of the characters acted out of character, and from an interview I watched yesterday with the director and the two actors who play Ellie and Joel, it seems like they all love the characters and felt the story was very true to who those characters were.

 

[RangerWickett]

Spoiler discussion with Troy Baker, Ashley Johnson, and Neil Druckmann: