Leader Role: The end of the cleric?

[Remathilis]

To be fair, in 1e clerics *could* turn demons (and evil clerics turn paladins. Heh.)

Heh, nothing was better than watching a high-level cleric-lich DESTROY a paladin and scream "HOW DOES IT FEEL?!" while doing it!

 

[RigaMortus2]

I still don't understand why we are assuming the Warlord is going to have the ability to heal like a Cleric, let alone the ability to heal (others) at all???

 

[hong]

I still don't understand why we are assuming the Warlord is going to have the ability to heal like a Cleric, let alone the ability to heal (others) at all???

I guess it's an assumption that it'll steal some of the crusader's schtick.

 

[frankthedm]

Agreed. The name is bad. It's quite a charged term, even these days, one heard on the news when politicians speak about current leaders they disapprove of in other countries.

That is mainly because some modern folks think peace is the best solution to most problems. {insert Robert Heinlein quote here]

In a world ruled by strength of arms and potency of spells, "warlord" is something one hopes to be. I don’t think it makes a good class name because it infers a great deal of status and rank as a default.

 

[Stone Dog]

I guess it's an assumption that it'll steal some of the crusader's schtick.

It has been mentioned that healing isn't going to be the sole province of divine casters anymore. Recovering hit points is going to come from a variety of sources, from divine casting to martial inspiration to personal recovery options.

 

[frankthedm]

I still don't understand why we are assuming the Warlord is going to have the ability to heal like a Cleric, let alone the ability to heal (others) at all???

He really should not. He probably will have an 'inspire' abilty that grants more second winds or something like that.

I'd prefer he have the ability to convince wounded NPC troops to fight on when reduced to criticaly low HP. Maybe give moral bonuses to negate penaties from being too damaged. Of course I'd looooove to see him able to convince allies to fight untill they drop dead ala die hard.

 

[Kaffis]

Forget Healing, other classes can do that (Bards, Paladins, Favored Souls, Dragon Shamen, Druid -- specially if the Druid has the Spontaneous Rejuvenation option from PHB2). But where the cleric really shines in against undead. Between Turn Undead, restoration, cure spells = damage, death ward, etc, clerics are THE class to battle the living dead.

So, is that still a concern? Is that role fillable?

That's kind of what I was thinking. If your party needs a leader who kicks more butt (or you just want to kick more butt while filling your party's leader hole), you go with warlord. If your party kicks sufficient butt already and you want the edge against the legions of the undead, you play a cleric, who kicks less butt except for when the undead dare face him, at which time he kicks a holy buttload of unholy butt.

 

[Merlion]

And I'd prefer that the cleric keep his "holy warrior" role, suitable for any god, with the paladin reserved as a unique champion that Lawful Good gets, to reflect a mythic/legendary archetype. Non-LG paladins as a core rule MAY be a deal-breaker for me switching to 4e.

The trouble is, the Paladin fills the idea of "holy warrior" a lot better than the Cleric in terms of concept versus overall mechanics. Paladins have full BAB and armor and weapons, and relatively few spells.

The trouble is, Clerics are *nearly* as good a warriors at base, and can have the full BAB etc from mid levels up when they need it, which is unbalanced.

Roles aside, for balance reasons the Cleric needs to cease being both a main spellcaster with 9 (or 25 or 30) levels of spells and a full spell list, and a competent warrior who can take on full warrior abilities as well.

If the Cleric doesnt loose either a bit of its magic or a bit of its combat/physical capabilites I will be VERY upset.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

If the Cleric doesnt loose either a bit of its magic or a bit of its combat/physical capabilites I will be VERY upset.

It used to be the case that cleric magic didn't advance as far as wizard magic. Scaling the cleric back to 7 levels of spells (or its equivalent), with them generally being lower-powered and more defensive than wizard spells, would be a good change. Several high-level spells in 3E were "Quest Spells" in 2E's Tome of Magic, so the cleric definitely got a spell power boost. I'd dial that back.

But again, I'd keep them in the role of "holy warrior" and I'd rather see the paladin class erased than see it perverted.