Learning on the Road

[jonesy]

The way I see it the player has a plan for the character, and as such the character has a plan for a career path. As long as they stick to that plan I'll allow them to level accordingly.

But if the plans change (for example, the character encounters a PrC related organization which tempts the player, or the player suddenly finds something in a splatbook that he wants to give the character), then the character has to go looking for what the new thing requires.

 

[Thunderfoot]

I've always had a problem with cross-classing due to this issue - Okay a mage wants to become a fighter, no problem, he knows how to basically swing a weapon (any idiot can do it, right?) and the armor thing is a bit tricky, but other than that, no problem....

The fighter wanting to become a mage though... Where did he do his apprenticeship? How long has he been studying musty tomes? If we've learned anything from fantasy literature it's that mage apprentices are taken in young and worked like a dog to learn patience, persistence and a smattering of technique. Where did Joe the Meat Shield learn this?

I have the same problem with Rogues, Rangers, Druids and Monks...

Now if their backstory is one of a mage apprentice that ran off to become a thief and then started picking things back up... I can see that, but just because you've watched the mage of the party blast a few beasties with Magic Missile is by no means extensive or intensive enough training for Fineous Fingers to suddenly start on the path to "Phenomenal Cosmic Power"

All that being said - if they are leveling in their respective classes, no problem, auto level and drive on. If they are looking at taking a prestige class, the "I was working towards it already" excuse works (unless the class says they need to be trained for some reason).

Also, think outside the box. Like was stated earlier, wandering parties of other adventurers, prisoners of monsters the party has rescued, secluded hermits (not in a moving mountain. ), monsters that are less monster and more "civilized" than their counterparts, etc. Where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Verdande]

I don't really see the problem. Sure, it damages the in-game fiction a little bit, but the alternative is that it's going to feel like you're favoring some of your players, even if you aren't.

It's a bit like the military term "fraternization." It doesn't matter if you are fraternizing or not, what matters is that it looks like you are, which leads the people you're supposed to be leading to not quite trust you right.

In this case, it looks like you're treating the more urban members of your party unfairly while favoring people who are playing more rugged classes. It doesn't matter if you actually are, what matters is the perception- and the guy who can't take his prestige class while his buddy gets a cool new power is going to feel pretty perceptive about that.

Personally, I'd let them all level up (and let the prestige class be a natural part of his character's growth like any other level instead of a pseudo secret-society thing) or let nobody level up until they can find somebody who can train them.

I'd lean towards the "let everybody level up," but that's because I haven't paid attention to training rules since god knows when.

 

[Rechan]

The fighter wanting to become a mage though... Where did he do his apprenticeship? How long has he been studying musty tomes? If we've learned anything from fantasy literature it's that mage apprentices are taken in young and worked like a dog to learn patience, persistence and a smattering of technique. Where did Joe the Meat Shield learn this?

Being an Apprentice mage at a wizard's school or under a wizard is likely filled with a lot of groundwork and stuff that is not specific to Casting Spells. Spellcraft is specifically identifying schools of magic/specific spells (so how to tell the aura of a conjuration vs. an illusion spell). Arcana is knowledge of various magic-related things like ancient wizards, dead languages, the history of spells, dead monsters, spell component combinations and what monsters make best spell components etc. There are likely classes on how to begin crafting your own spells, how to make spell scrolls (and the basic knowledge of how to build magic items), how to contact outsiders. Additionally you'd have non-magical learning like the fantasy equivalent of science, and wizards know lots of languages (due to high int) - where do you think they learned at least 3 extra languages? When it finally comes to actual casting, it's likely how to shape a basic illusion, how to do a conjuration correctly. along with lots of fundamental practice.

This is a lot like the real world where going to a 4 year college gives you a lengthy education consisting of a little info in a lot of areas. You have general education forcing you to get a well-rounding of unrelated info. Then, even in your specified field, you get a lot of initial info for many different areas within that large subject. You get very little depth of knowledge. Worse, you get little hands-on experience.

So very little of Mage School could prepare wizards to be an adventuring spellcaster whose main job is killing things very effectively with combat magic. Meanwhile, a fighter who is multi-classing into wizard is likely doing it for one reason: to learn an effective attack spell or a buff spell. He's trying to cast one or two things, and that's it. He's looking for something really focused, and he's probably been exposed to enough magic to get the fundamental 'say this do that and hope real hard" that the basics to casting the lowest of spells.

In the real world, many of your jobs have a narrow focus. Experience of being exposed to things in other fields can give you a taste or some justified experience - but it's not hard to get "on the job training" to be capable of doing something specialized. If all you're doing is handling a database, then you don't need a lot of unnecessary info. You just need to be shown how, and then keep doing that.

A different analogy would be the difference between basic training for enlisted soldiers, and officer's school for officers. Bootcamp teaches you how to shoot, trains your body to deal with harsh conditions, teaches you order following, marching, teaches a few skills, and then you might end up going to the front lines right then. Officer's school sends you to get an education for several years because you're going into command positions. You'll be in fighting situations sure, and that skillset is there, but you'll be doing more than your infantry men. The magical equivalent of bootcamp is when someone multi-classes into Wizard.

 

[Thunderfoot]

A different analogy would be the difference between basic training for enlisted soldiers, and officer's school for officers. Bootcamp teaches you how to shoot, trains your body to deal with harsh conditions, teaches you order following, marching, teaches a few skills, and then you might end up going to the front lines right then. Officer's school sends you to get an education for several years because you're going into command positions. You'll be in fighting situations sure, and that skillset is there, but you'll be doing more than your infantry men. The magical equivalent of bootcamp is when someone multi-classes into Wizard.

Firstly, I agree with your broad points. It is entirely workable. It's more flavor than anything. I prefer to think of the spellcraft skill as a litle more intensive than just basic "analysis/forensics" but, it's not enough to quibble over.

However, I disagree with your example, though. As a former enlisted Soldier, the only thing that separated our Senior NCOs and Officers was the rank. The modern enlisted promotions system requires just as much education for promotion as officers have to get to get pinned. The only difference is pay and sometimes the quality of chow (depending upon your location). Or to state it another way, "What's the difference between a PFC and a 2LT? The PFC has been promoted...twice." I love that joke.

 

[Desdichado]

However, how does one usually handle the situation when a player wants to learn something that it would be practically impossible for them to learn without an instructor? Am I just way over-thinking this and should just submit to the outer-reality laws of gaming?

We've never once considered it--when we level up, we can take our level in any allowed class, no matter where we are. Sometimes we'll even level twice in one game "day" while in the same dungeon.

 

[howandwhy99]

My dilemma comes when I have a player that wants to begin taking a prestige class early on (possibly 4th level) - The major question is how should I handle the players learning new abilities and feats and possibly entirely new classes?

My answer has been something like your second to last paragraph's. Characters train in stable environments for their upcoming level break. Training is with a trainer or alone, but self training is costs twice as much time. If your not accounting for time, then that isn't a cost. Training for 1st level in another class takes considerable more time and several multiples longer if it is self training. This means leaving the proverbial dungeon can be beneficial, and training is just one way of such, as well as keeping the choice meaningful. Otherwise we'd just keep running around, killing stuff, and collecting treasure and never bothering with what's in town.

However, how does one usually handle the situation when a player wants to learn something that it would be practically impossible for them to learn without an instructor? Am I just way over-thinking this and should just submit to the outer-reality laws of gaming?

I don't know of any usual way. I suggest figuring out your way really, even if it's dropping training.

 

[Alan Shutko]

I've always figured this kind of stuff out and set the ground rules when the campaign starts. In some campaigns, hey the rule book is open, take whatever mechanics you want. In other campaigns, base classes are wide open but PrCs need you to actually meet an organization. In that kind of campaign, I would not expect the organization to be magically available when you're ready to level, but the PC would need to work toward contacting that organization. It would probably be a plot hook for a side adventure.

In others, you need to set the stage for anything. And setting the stage is a shared job for the DM and the player. For example, say I'm playing a fighter who wants to multi class for a level of cleric. I can set the stage by mentioning I'm taking some introductory religious schooling from the party cleric (which works if you're worshipping the same god or at least pantheon). If we go into a town, I can look for the right church and ask for some tutoring in exchange for doing some chores around the grounds. If I know I'll be going into the wilderness, I can get some religious tomes I'll be reading at night and maybe some names of hermits to look up if I'm in the area.

From the DM's side, I would work with the player to make sure the preparations would actually work. If the player knew about a few hermits he could look up, one of those hermits would be convenient at a point in the adventure. I might add a small chapel or the opportunity for a religious experience.

The reason I determine and set expectations up front is because it has an effect on the feel of the campaign. When I run a wizard academy campaign, there's definitely going to be more formalized training than in a race against time save the world campaign.