LEB Discussion Thread '09

[stonegod]

are the quintessential books on the approved list?

Nope. Unlikely to be as I don't think we have a large number of judges who have access.

Is there a specific reason they nerfed Opportunity Attacks AND flanking with reach weapons in 4ed? People were just having too much fun or something?

I can think of some reach cheese in 3.5, so that's likely the source. Most monsters don't have threatening reach, either.

 

[EvolutionKB]

I justed wanted to say that I am all for starting at level four now. Nice job on CS SG. Man, I can't wait for a day off. Day 7 of 9 in a row, that's 84 hours in one week thus far...Then I can comment more of some stuff here. As far as approved material goes, I'd be okay with Dragon stuff too(especially if it's already approved on L4E).

I decided on a character, a sorc.

...SG, I'll update Lost later, I gotta get some sleep.

 

[Vertexx69]

So could I run a couple specifics from it through the grinder for consideration then?

1. brigandine armor: light armor, 4 AC, check -1, 25g usable by fighters. pg 96

2. Merciless wound - 1st lvl fighter at-will attack, Req: must be wielding light blade/flail/pick, Str vs AC, 1[w] and target takes ongoing dmg = to dex mod (save ends). pg 34

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I'm a little wary of that brigadine armor ... it's already possible to make Avengers with AC equal to or higher than defenders, and brigadine would just add to that. Other Dex or Int oriented strikers (Rogues, Rangers, and possibly Sorcs come to mind) can get AC equal to defenders with leather or hide armor as well.

Aside from the potential mechanical funniness of Avengers in brigadine being harder to hit than paladins with plate+shield, I'm not sure I really see the point of brigadine to be honest, other than as a fashion statement. It sounds like it's intended to give fighters their Dex bonus to AC, but ... is there really a need for this? For most fighters, scale (or plate) will be just as good as brigadine + high Dex. And since there's no touch AC anymore, which required a high Dex to be any good, it's really no concern how you get your AC high, just that it is high.

 

[Vertexx69]

The concept I'm toying with is a tempest fighter with high dex, they get bonuses to dmg when wearing light armor so every little bit helps.

Avengers only start with cloth proficiency, so getting all the way up to brigandine armor would take them 3 feats which is alot of commitment toward the the tertiary role of defender when they could be taking things to improve their primary role as strikers. Or for that point, there is no brigandine armor feat so nobody besides fighters can wear it properly anyways. Every other class has gear specifically for them, the brigandine armor is only for fighters.

The armor of faith feature of the Avenger is completely inappropriate IMHO. Even without brig armor, a 4th lvl paladin with +1 plate & +1 heavy shield has 24AC, whereas a 4 lvl Avenger with 20 Dex/Int who took 2 armor feats, +1 hide armor and improved astral has a 25AC.
This the very definition of broken.

The entire armor of faith feature should be shifted to the paladin and cleric classes, who don't have a bunch of extra dmg features like the strikers do.

 

[Goumindong]

Just change to hide once your scale AC is worse than your hide AC.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

The armor of faith feature of the Avenger is completely inappropriate IMHO. Even without brig armor, a 4th lvl paladin with +1 plate & +1 heavy shield has 24AC, whereas a 4 lvl Avenger with 20 Dex/Int who took 2 armor feats, +1 hide armor and improved astral has a 25AC.
This the very definition of broken.

I would hardly call it "the very definition of broken" that an Avenger who decided to start with his secondary stat higher than his primary and spend three feats to boost his AC has an AC one point higher than a Paladin who only bought a magic heavy shield. The Avenger made some pretty heavy sacrifices, so why shouldn't they pay off? Sure, the Avenger is slightly harder to hit with most attacks. He also is looking at either a 10 con or a relatively poor wisdom, so pound him with some Fort targeting attacks. And Censure of Retribution triggers off being hit, not being attacked, so he may have just screwed himself over if he chose that path.

Even if you're right, does Brigadine Armor help the paladin here? I don't know the source, but unless the armor allows him to use Charisma to boost his armor class, it's not going to help.

Finally, I don't know if I like ongoing damage on an at-will. It seems a bit much.

What's the source on these?

 

[Vertexx69]

The brigandine armor is from the quintessential fighter. A 3rd party fighter class only resource. and yes armor of faith is broken because defenders don't have the same options to boost their ACs with feats until paragon lvl. A striker has enhanced dmg at the cost of HP and AC. By creating a striker class with an AC that can surpass the defnder, it can fill multiple roles. This cuts down on the number of players needed to survive an adventure, which makes it even harder to find a game here in enworld LEB. There are half a dozen choices for both ranged and melee strikers, so I think Avenger should just be disallowed altogether in this particular environment. There are so few reliable judges to start with, that a class enabling parties of 3 to survive doesn't seem logical in this arena. Save the Avengers for home games, and let the defender classes do their jobs here.

 

[Goumindong]

The armor of faith feature of the Avenger is completely inappropriate IMHO. Even without brig armor, a 4th lvl paladin with +1 plate & +1 heavy shield has 24AC, whereas a 4 lvl Avenger with 20 Dex/Int who took 2 armor feats, +1 hide armor and improved astral has a 25AC.
This the very definition of broken.

There is no such thing as a +1 heavy shield in dnd 4e. His AC is only 23

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

A striker has enhanced dmg at the cost of HP and AC. By creating a striker class with an AC that can surpass the defnder, it can fill multiple roles.

Can it? Can the Avenger really replace a defender? Even if he butchered his Constitution to get the 20 Dex/Int? I must admit, I've never seen an Avenger in action, so this is all theory, but it looks like it would be really hard for an Avenger to be a good defender.

Ok, here's how I would build an Avenger with 25 AC at level 4. Luckily, that 20 Dex/Int requirement means there can't be that much variation.

Elf (or any other Dex and Wis race. Can't be Int, because Retribution Avengers occasionally want to be hit, and for another reason I'll get to later.)

Original stats:
Str: 13, Con: 10, Dex: 17, Int: 10, Wis: 15, Cha: 8

After Racial adjustment:
Str: 13, Con: 10, Dex: 19, Int: 10, Wis: 17, Cha: 8

At level 4:
Str: 13, Con: 10, Dex: 20, Int: 10, Wis: 18, Cha: 8

So, that's 42 hp and 7 surges. A Paladin, since that seems to be the comparison we're using, with 10 Con (ugh) would have two less AC (wow, I can't believe I forgot about the no magic shields), only 1 more HP, but 3 more surges. That's pretty significant. In addition, she has a way to discourage enemies from attacking her friends (Divine Challenge), and a way to "undo" attacks that hit her friends (Lay on Hands). If she wanted, she could use her feats on Toughness, Durable, and Healing Hands, widening the effective HP gap between her and the Avenger.

The Avenger can't heal his allies. If the Avenger does get hit, (and he will be hit. AC isn't everything), it takes a larger proportion of his daily healing surges to heal, meaning he can't stick around for the long run. And perhaps most importantly, he doesn't have a mark. If an enemy is adjacent to his ally, he can't discourage it from attacking his ally. If he's not adjacent to an enemy, he can't discourage it from charging the squishies.

There's more to a Defender than being tough, and there's more to being tough than being hard to hit.

And forget about Retribution Avengers. No intelligent monster is going to stick to them if their AC is through the roof. They'll peel off and attack the squishies first chance they get. At least Pursuit gives quasi-stickiness.

I can see how an Avenger might not need a Defender to protect him, but I don't see how he can protect everyone else.

Oh, and about the trade-off of damage for toughness, those feats the Avenger spend boosting his AC could have gotten him RRoT (which is still pretty good) and Weapon Proficiency with something gross. The ability points he spend on Str and Dex could have been placed in Wisdom. This guy has made a trade.

This cuts down on the number of players needed to survive an adventure, which makes it even harder to find a game here in enworld LEB.

Does it? My experience with 4e pbp has been extremely limited, but it seems to me that less reliance on roles being filled is a good thing. What if there's an adventure ready to go, but there aren't any defenders around. Shouldn't it be a good thing that a "properly" built Avenger can serve as a defender? But I'm not wild about class-based systems in the first place. And this assumes an Avenger can be a defender.

There are half a dozen choices for both ranged and melee strikers, so I think Avenger should just be disallowed altogether in this particular environment. There are so few reliable judges to start with, that a class enabling parties of 3 to survive doesn't seem logical in this arena. Save the Avengers for home games, and let the defender classes do their jobs here.

Can you show me how an Avenger can defend? He has a couple pulls, and he's a little sticky if he's Pursuit, but I don't see him being a good defender. I'm not trying to be confrontational here; I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing.

Edit: Swordmages! How could I forget them?

At the cost of two feats (Hide Armor Proficiency and Improved Swordmage Warding) a Swordmage with 20 int at level 4 could have the following AC:

10 + 2 (1/2 level) + 5 (int) + 4 (Swordmage Warding + Improved Swordmage Warding) + 4 (+1 Hide Armor) = 25!

Int is the main stat for a Swordmage, so they aren't making nearly as much of a sacrifice to pull this off, and even a human can get the 13 Str, 13 Dex, and 17 Int to do this and still have some left over for Con.

So, one defender can match the Avenger for AC.