LEB Discussion Thread '10

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KarinsDad

Visitor
Telepathy allows two way communication. It is not explicitly specified if the non-telepath can initiate, but if we make the (reasonable) inference that the kalashtar is always "listening" such as our ears are, so that a non-kalashtar can telepathically attempt to call out.
"a non-kalashtar can telepathically attempt to call out"

Non-kalashtars do not have telepathic abilities. By allowing them to "telepathically call out", you are giving telepathic abilities to a non-telepathic race.

The Group Mind feat gives this, but why should non-kalashtars get it for free?

The kalashtar might be "telepathically listening", but without a telepathic transmitter, how does the non-kalashtar dial the call?


The purpose of Group Mind is not just to allow non-kalashtar PC 1 to communicate with non-kalashtar PC 2 without the kalashtar PC filtering the message and to allow simulataneous communication, it is also to allow non-kalashtar PC 1 to telepathically communicate in the first place ("Any ally within the range of your telepathy can communicate", not just the kalashtar). By giving the non-kalashtar PC a telepathic mouth with which to dial the call for free, you are giving the most important part of this feat to the non-kalashtar PCs in the party and invalidating most of the utility of the feat.

A kalashtar without the feat can totally emulate most aspects of the feat by just saying "go ahead guys, I'll forward your messages". Why have the feat if the kalashtar PC basically gets it for free anyway. Nobody would take the feat.
 

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
Your reading is a more strict one, I agree. It comes down to the analogy used:
- The communication channel one, like radio. This is the more strict one.
- The senses channel one, like hearing. This is the more lenient one.
There seems little in the rules clarifying which is the correct one. Groupmind lets two PCs without telepathy communicate mentally directly; the ability to communicate between the telepathic and non-telepathic PC is granted by telepathy itself (if you use the more lenient version, not if you use the more strict).

If you want to fix a version of it in LEB canon, a proposal is the way to go.
 

KarinsDad

Visitor
There seems little in the rules clarifying which is the correct one.
The only thing we have in the rules is the difference of:

Telepathy: You can communicate

Group Mind: Any ally can communicate

There does appear to be rules intent here.

If you want to fix a version of it in LEB canon, a proposal is the way to go.
Agreed. I just wanted to see what other people thought before putting through a proposal.
 

renau1g

Visitor
Any thought of doing a census of power source as well?
No problem. Here we go. Also included the character just submitted. I think I have the power sources right. Arcane are the most common (although there's 6 with that power source and only 4 with the others). Shadow's the least common (only assassin so far) and the others are about the same.
 
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renau1g

Visitor
Just an FYI, I'll be off in about a half hour or so for the holidays and at home watching the boys. I'll certainly be less post-y at that point and will not be around after noon or so EST tomorrow (the 24th) until likely Monday the 28th (also slow posting that week, still watching the boys, daycare's closed). Resuming normal posting rates on Monday Jan. 4th.

If I'm holding up any games feel free to NPC me. Enjoy the holidays everyone!
 

KarinsDad

Visitor
No problem. Here we go. Also included the character just submitted. I think I have the power sources right. Arcane are the most common (although there's 6 with that power source and only 4 with the others). Shadow's the least common (only assassin so far) and the others are about the same.
Thanks for doing this. I'll definitely bring in a Controller for my next PC with this information.
 

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
A Question: Anyone know how to get MapTools from trying to re-download itself everytime I run it?
 
Agreed. I just wanted to see what other people thought before putting through a proposal.
I'll have to agree with KarinsDad. I see it this way.

Everyone has a phone but only the kalashtar's has a key pad. The non-telepath can pick up the phone but only get a dial tone. If it doesn't work this way then think what happens when a kalashtar walks into a crowded bar and a dozen people are in their range. They wouldn't be able to hear themselves think. For there own sanity I'd think that kalashtar wouldn't 'always "listening"'.
 

Kalidrev

Visitor
I disagree, and I'll tell you why. If a Kalashtar were NOT always listening, then how in the world would the Telepathic Sensitivity feat work? I think a better analogy would not be the telephone, but rather a telephone switchboard. It knows all the calls are there, but at first, can only plug into one call at a time (the single cord with connections at both ends). It hears the rings, but can only connect to the ones directed at his/her switchboard.

What the Group Mind feat is doing, on the other hand, is splicing a bunch of these cords together and adding connectors to each of the many ends, which are plugged into all of the kalashtar's ally's communication ports, allowing each of the allies to speak to each other ally, using the kalashtar as the conduit, rather than speaking to the Kalashtar directly.
 

stonegod

Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
If it doesn't work this way then think what happens when a kalashtar walks into a crowded bar and a dozen people are in their range. They wouldn't be able to hear themselves think. For there own sanity I'd think that kalashtar wouldn't 'always "listening"'.
And my counter-analogy would be to point out what do normal people do when then go into a crowded, loud place: They focus on only the parts of the conversation they want and require their friends who want to get their attention to yell).
 
And my counter-analogy would be to point out what do normal people do when then go into a crowded, loud place: They focus on only the parts of the conversation they want and require their friends who want to get their attention to yell).
Only they have BOTH. (any the telepathic people aren't controlling their volume). Note that this would also lets 74 monsters read your mind. :(

I disagree, and I'll tell you why. If a Kalashtar were NOT always listening, then how in the world would the Telepathic Sensitivity feat work?
Note what the feat says. You 'sense stray thoughts' NOT you hear stray thoughts. You are one step away from always hearing. You can tell there are thought just not what they are. It's like being outside a room and being able to tell the TV is on by the flashing lights but not being able to tell what's on the TV.
 

Kalidrev

Visitor
EGS: That does make sense (the part about the flashing TV, but not being able to tell what is on the TV especially), but there is still, unfortunately, nothing that says specifically that the Kalashtar has to be the one to initiate the conversation. I think we're just going to have to put this to proposal to get it sorted out. In fact, I think I will do just that right now.
 

Moon_Goddess

Explorer
What I had to do for my game with a kalastar in it was treat it like a language....

So the kalashtar is either listening to everyone or to no one, and speaking to EVERYONE or no one. limited by range. So he can't talk to the PC without the bad guys hearing him, it's an all or nothing.
 

Kalidrev

Visitor
I made the proposal for it. All further continuance of the Kalashtar Telepathy discussion should continue HERE (so that people don't have to continue going between the two threads).
 
What I had to do for my game with a kalastar in it was treat it like a language....
Actually it's listed as a language in the eberron book. They changed that in the CB but it's not errata'd so...

EGS: That does make sense (the part about the flashing TV, but not being able to tell what is on the TV especially), but there is still, unfortunately, nothing that says specifically that the Kalashtar has to be the one to initiate the conversation. I think we're just going to have to put this to proposal to get it sorted out. In fact, I think I will do just that right now.
Agreed. The telepathy rules are mighty light, so I understand I'm just giving an opinion on how it makes sense to me. I put my 2 cents in since KarinsDad said he wanted to hear what everyone else thought before he made a proposal.
 

renau1g

Visitor
Which is certainly welcome EGS, especially as the tone has been very good and open of this discussion. I'm certainly open to hearing everyone's thoughts.

sg: 'Fraid I don't know how to stop the Maptools from connecting each time, anything under the options or preferences?
 

Moon_Goddess

Explorer
Stonegod the who maptools download has to do with the way you installed it...

Basically there are 2 options for installing maptools, one you click the little run from site and it always downloads the program, basically it just gives you an icon, that's all it does.

The other you download a zipfile and decompress and run that. that does not download each time.

hope that helps
 
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