LEB Discussion Thread '10

[Walking Dad]

We've generally, since the printing of PHB2 at least, given expertise for free in our local games. After a bit of discussion we decided to allow the new Expertise feats with a small change. The +1/2/3 bonus becomes a flat +1 Feat bonus.

This way it's a feat granting a bonus instead of a bandaid trying to cover a math error.

Don't like it.

1. - It makes no difference until level 15. Which level has the highest character here?
2. - There are other feats out (like Draconic Spellcaster) that mimic Expertise. You would have to change them, too.
3. - If there is a math problem, just a +1 doesn't fix it.


I suggested this in the L4W forum:

When will the Essentials stuff officially be allowed (date)?

Is there any dicussion to change L4W's take on the expertise feats? Some of the new ones in HotFL have additional effects I would like for earlier level characters, for example the ability to avoid OA's for ranged attacks on Staff mastery.

Should I propose following idea:

Expertise feats are allowed, but you gain no bonus to 'to hit' until level 5. When you reach level 5, you gain one Expertise Feat for free and an extra retrain option for the Expertise feats you maybe already have.

 

[renau1g]

What do others think?

Well, as we start at 4th here, I'm not too concerned with them kicking in at 5th, and I much prefer our flat +1 "LEB Expertise" to the one at L4W.

 

[twilsemail]

Don't like it.

1. - It makes no difference until level 15. Which level has the highest character here?
2. - There are other feats out (like Draconic Spellcaster) that mimic Expertise. You would have to change them, too.
3. - If there is a math problem, just a +1 doesn't fix it.


I suggested this in the L4W forum:

Either I misrepresented what I was trying to say or you misunderstood (or both). This isn't replacing the already free +1/2/3 in our games. Players still get the math fix. The reason for changing the scaling bonus to a flat +1 was strictly to make the feats a bit more appreciable.

I'd rather my players were able to take Linguistics or some other flavorful feat than "require" they take Expertise.

 

[renau1g]

Either I misrepresented what I was trying to say or you misunderstood (or both). This isn't replacing the already free +1/2/3 in our games. Players still get the math fix. The reason for changing the scaling bonus to a flat +1 was strictly to make the feats a bit more appreciable.

I'd rather my players were able to take Linguistics or some other flavorful feat than "require" they take Expertise.

I believe i misunderstood it also. So you give the free +1 @ 5/15/25, but also allow Expertise feats, but with the caveat that they are only a +1 feat bonus regardless of level, correct?

 

[twilsemail]

Da. Correct.

The new expertise feats overlap the free expertise bonus so their secondary benefits would be the only thing players got. With the +1, they seem more in line to the rest of us. A conditional +1 seemed reasonable. Granted, the condition is easy to meet. Then again, Feyborn Charm is also easy to meet when you're building a PC for it.

 

[evilbob]

Maybe starting two discussions wasn't the best idea, since we're doing a lot of reposting... but my opinion (already expressed) is:

I hate "required" feats as much as anyone, but that's apparently how this is supposed to work. WotC has not only NOT backed away from expertise feats, they made them even MORE required. I still don't know what the best solution is, but I'm kind of leaning toward just leave it alone and let everyone take the stupid things at level 1 and be done with it.

 

[twilsemail]

Maybe starting two discussions wasn't the best idea, since we're doing a lot of reposting... but my opinion (already expressed) is:

I hate "required" feats as much as anyone, but that's apparently how this is supposed to work. WotC has not only NOT backed away from expertise feats, they made them even MORE required. I still don't know what the best solution is, but I'm kind of leaning toward just leave it alone and let everyone take the stupid things at level 1 and be done with it.

I don't see, at all, why removing the elegant solution LEB has is necessary. If someone really wants the Essentials Expertise secondary benefits, they can take those feats just for that benefit. If anything, ammend the feats so they don't stack with LEB expertise.

 

[KarinsDad]

Maybe starting two discussions wasn't the best idea, since we're doing a lot of reposting... but my opinion (already expressed) is:

I hate "required" feats as much as anyone, but that's apparently how this is supposed to work. WotC has not only NOT backed away from expertise feats, they made them even MORE required. I still don't know what the best solution is, but I'm kind of leaning toward just leave it alone and let everyone take the stupid things at level 1 and be done with it.

I agree that everyone should get it, but I think it should be level 5 instead of level 1.

Say a given PC needs an 11 to hit a given type of same level opponent at level one, acquires a new magic weapon/implement at levels 2, 7, 12, 17, 22, and 27, and bumps up his main stat, etc. at all of the appropriate levels.

The first column below shows level, the second his number need to hit without expertise, the third his number need to hit with expertise at level 5, and the fourth his number need to hit with expertise at level 1.

In the third column, his average number needed over the 30 levels is an 11. The same number as he started with at first level.

In the fourth column, his average number is a bit below 11 due to the bonus +1 to hit at levels 1 through 4. I don't see a need to give him a bonus at levels 1 through 4. The game is already balanced for those levels. As can be seen by the second column, it's levels 5+ where the game starts becoming unbalanced.

01 11 11 10
02 10 10 9
03 11 11 10
04 11 11 10
05 12 11
06 12 11
07 12 11
08 11 10
09 12 11
10 12 11
11 13 12
12 12 11
13 13 12
14 12 11
15 13 11
16 13 11
17 13 11
18 13 11
19 14 12
20 14 12
21 13 11
22 12 10
23 13 11
24 13 11
25 14 11
26 14 11
27 14 11
28 13 10
29 14 11
30 14 11

 

[stonegod]

I don't see, at all, why removing the elegant solution LEB has is necessary. If someone really wants the Essentials Expertise secondary benefits, they can take those feats just for that benefit. If anything, ammend the feats so they don't stack with LEB expertise.

Assuming the Expertise feats still grant feat bonuses, then its a simple change to what we already have (just make it a feat bonus).

 

[Otakkun]

After much reading, I've changed my opinion on this. I think we should keep things as they are right now here in LEB.

At 5/15/25 you get the +1/+2/+3 FEAT bonus to hit. With anything.

This way, you can take whatever feat you want, say, versatile expertise at level 1 and then at 5 you can retrain it to something else, or in the case of the new essential feats, just stick with it for the secondary benefits.

After all, 2 feat bonuses don't stack.