D&D 5E Legal Ready action triggers and order of resolution

First: If that was the only part of Counterspell that interacted with spells, your reaction would go after the spell was cast and you would have countered nothing...

I brought up Counterspell to point out its possible to know someone is casting a spell.

The rest of your argument is specious and redundant as any point you've brought up was discussed previously in the thread. I'm not going to repeat myself or the points of others.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the belligerence of your response; it was unwarranted.
 

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Sorry, my response came as a criticism of your examples (which it wasn't meant to be) and failed to make my point.

What I was getting at is that; from an action economy point of view, you would be better off simply using your action first since your action came up before the target. If you are trying to achieve anything else (ie capture a plot NPC) then your best option may be a delayed action but only if that delayed action does interrupt an action on behalf of the target, if it does not interrupt the action then what is the point of the delayed action. Since the scenario of "Don't move or I'll shoot." becomes useless, if there is any form of cover with (typically) 30 feet of the target.

Tall

I understood your point; but please see this from my point of view: I was asking for help clarifying the most legal method to handle the Ready action; and you are attacking the effectiveness of the Ready action itself. Everything you posit may be true, but it's sorta besides the point, don't you think?

It would be like me asking on a cooking forum the best way to bake biscuits and you respond with 'biscuits suck.'
 

I understood your point; but please see this from my point of view: I was asking for help clarifying the most legal method to handle the Ready action; and you are attacking the effectiveness of the Ready action itself. Everything you posit may be true, but it's sorta besides the point, don't you think?

It would be like me asking on a cooking forum the best way to bake biscuits and you respond with 'biscuits suck.'
Ah ok.

I'm trying to point out that one interpretation makes the whole thing pointless and you should use the other. But that assumes the rules are ambiguously written and open to interpretation, which it may be, but that's not what you are asking.

RTFQ I guess.

Ian

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 


You misunderstand what counterspell's trigger is.

No i'm not. I'm saying that unless specified, a reaction can interrupt a TURN, not an ACTION. You would trigger immediately, but the action has to pass UNLESS it is specified in a different manner. Such as Counterspell defines in its description. It being a reaction does not make it instantly and automatically interrupt an action. It just makes it able to do so.

Even with this, and even if i'm wrong, Readied actions are NOT reactions. They just use your reaction for the turn.

Police shootings are in the news right now. The police tell a guy to stop, freeze [...] as opposed to, 'when he shoots me', 'when he has completed casting and the spell is in effect', 'when he has moved out of reach'.

We agree that it's not something that happens frequently, and as a DM i make sure it does not happen AT ALL. The trigger would be a clear "if he does something that is not what i ordered". If he does, his action comes FIRST. I know it, Players know it, we have been crystal clear one another. They might still ask, and i might rule an exception. But it's that, an exception, since i do not like risking to bog the game with a back and forth of deception and insight or investigate rolls... unless the situation is built around it, and i'll try to make my players know that's my intent via description. If i'm not clear, i'm the first that steps down from "in game" mode to clarify, since a little loss of tension is less problematic than a bog down of incomprensions and frustration.

Basically, we agree on the important part: Fun > else. We might end up ruling differently. As a player, i would ask beforehand if i'm allowed to do x, if yes ok, if not why. Short. Simple. Possibly outside of a gaming session.

Btw, when and ifs it's just a way to make the phrase.Imho.

Ready action transparency will highly depend on how you interpret it for sure since it's not specifically written. If you interpret someone "ready to move back when X happen" to be crouched like Bruni Surin ready to run a race it will be obvious. If you interpret it as not specifically changing posture or anything it wouldn't necessarily be, like when you play tag and conceal intentions of your next move to evade pursuer if it comes for you....

Yeah, but rules state that unless exceptions, you know what is going on in combat. Reading an action as we are discussing it is a combat situation. So you should know what other are doing for their action, in full detail, unless hidden unseen and whatnot. Even an greater invisibility concealed caster that is preparing a lightning bolt is known to everyone to be ... preparing a lightning bolt. Or a melee strike, for how absurd that is. This would be VERY challenging to describe, and i honestly right now have problems doing so, but... players should know, anyway. And if it wasn't clear from all the "i would" and "me"'s that i throw around, it's an opinion. That has some backing in the rules.

It's clear to me Counterspell, like an opportunity attack, are reactions specifically designed to interrupt their trigger, which Ready cannot do since it happen right after. But they all have a point in common; they use a reaction

Nope, one IS a reaction, the other USES a reaction. Using a reaction does not confer reaction status or benefits, unless stated so.

I brought up Counterspell to point out its possible to know someone is casting a spell.

The rest of your argument is specious and redundant as any point you've brought up was discussed previously in the thread. I'm not going to repeat myself or the points of others.

Honestly, I'm surprised at the belligerence of your response; it was unwarranted.

There's no belligerence. Not intended. Do not worry. Only thing i've been saying is that you can get when someone is casting a spell. A readied action would go after the spell. "Begin" is no good trigger, as it's open for further prying. Further prying (can) distorts player intention. That's not what the player wants -> no good. Can be done without a readied action? Yep, go ahead without a readied action. Can't be done with a normal action? Can't be done with a readied action too. Is the "when" important for the desired effect to take place, and the only thing that prevents the action to be done in the turn? The readied action might be the way to go.

I cannot use eldritch blast to push someone off a cliff until it passes in front of this particular space, then the readied action is a good choice. Hold person to keep someone in an area of effect is highly ineffectual if cast as a readied action instead of one of your turns as usually you'll get more out of it, and likely the target is going to get out before your reaction takes place. And some caster might ready a dispel. Or attack you to make you lose concentration. That's it.

I understood your point; but please see this from my point of view: I was asking for help clarifying the most legal method to handle the Ready action; and you are attacking the effectiveness of the Ready action itself. Everything you posit may be true, but it's sorta besides the point, don't you think?
It would be like me asking on a cooking forum the best way to bake biscuits and you respond with 'biscuits suck.'

The most legal is sticking to the raw. Readied action take place after the action they get triggered from. They can't interrupt an action that's going on. Trigger has to be clear and to be easily percievable (or whatever you write it). Dm has final ruling. So dm can make unicorns appear out of a sword strike. And that would be awesome. Imho.

Edit: Oh i do appreciate :P
 

It's clear to me Counterspell, like an opportunity attack, are reactions specifically designed to interrupt their trigger, which Ready cannot do since it happen right after. But they all have a point in common; they use a reaction

Nope, one IS a reaction, the other USES a reaction. Using a reaction does not confer reaction status or benefits, unless stated so.
I don't understand what this is supposed to even mean? What is a reaction status exactly?

A spell casting time requiring a reaction use the same type of action as an opportunity attack or the readied action. It is subject to the same rules affecting reactions and wouldn't be usable if incapacitated for exemple. So not sure what you mean here....
 


No i'm not. I'm saying that unless specified, a reaction can interrupt a TURN, not an ACTION.

That is not the case. The reaction to a trigger cannot come before that trigger. This is true not only for 5E but in the wider universe, ignoring quantum physics. It has nothing to do with 'Actions In Combat', or 'turns'.

The trigger would be a clear "if he does something that is not what i ordered". If he does, his action comes FIRST. I know it, Players know it, we have been crystal clear one another.

If your trigger is, 'when he shoots me, I shoot him', then yes his shot goes first because the trigger is him shooting you. This is why no sane person would choose that trigger!

If your trigger is, 'when he draws his gun', then he draws his gun and that triggers your shot. You shoot him after he draws his gun but before he shoots you, because your trigger had nothing to do with him shooting you.

If your trigger is, 'if he goes for his gun', then the DM describes exactly what he does. If you perceive what he actually does as 'going for his gun' (skill contest may be required) then you can choose to execute your Readied action. Again, no part of the trigger involved him actually shooting you, therefore you don't have to wait for an action subsequent to your trigger is resolved! Only for the trigger itself to resolve, and you make damn sure that you don't choose his actual attack as your trigger!

There is nothing in the rules for the Ready action that require the trigger to be an Action In Combat! It can be any perceivable 'act', i.e. anything that happens.

It is perfectly permissible to define your trigger as 'if he starts casting a spell', because 'casting a spell' is 'the VSM components', not 'the spell effect beginning'.

The trigger is the VSM components. By rule, your Readied action resolves after the trigger but before anything else. So the VSM components complete, then your reaction/Readied action resolves, then the spell effect begins, if it still can.

Your Readied action hasn't interrupted the trigger (the VSM components) at all! But your Readied Action still resolves before the spell duration begins because the spell effect was never the trigger!

Do you get it yet?
 

I don't understand what this is supposed to even mean? What is a reaction status exactly?

A spell casting time requiring a reaction use the same type of action as an opportunity attack or the readied action. It is subject to the same rules affecting reactions and wouldn't be usable if incapacitated for exemple. So not sure what you mean here....

Can you quote the rules where this is written?

PHB, 190, Reactions: "Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction."

PHB, 193, "Ready" section. "To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction."
"When the lrigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger."

There's no reaction status. There's the same difference that runs between "a melee weapon attack" and " an attack with a melee weapon". If you can't use the reaction to fire your action, you can't fire your action, and that's obvious.

That is not the case. The reaction to a trigger cannot come before that trigger. This is true not only for 5E but in the wider universe, ignoring quantum physics. It has nothing to do with 'Actions In Combat', or 'turns'.

What??? What are you even saying? Where did i say what you are implying - no, stating - i'm saying?

It has to do with rules for the Ready action, thus has to deal with Actions in Combat and turns, but... whaaaat? We are in agreement on the trigger...

If your trigger is, 'when he shoots me, I shoot him', then yes his shot goes first because the trigger is him shooting you. This is why no sane person would choose that trigger!

If your trigger is, 'when he draws his gun', then he draws his gun and that triggers your shot. You shoot him after he draws his gun but before he shoots you, because your trigger had nothing to do with him shooting you.

This is where i (as in, in every post i made till now i tried to say "i , as a DM" or "personally") split.
Case 1) Yep. We agree. Crystal clear rules.
Case 2) is actually case 2 AND case 3.
Is the weapon being drawn as part of the Attack action?
Case 2) Yes it is!
Case 3) No, it's an Use Object action!
By rules, the trigger is "i draw the gun". You go after the trigger has come to an end. The gun has been drawn. TO ME and my players, ONLY case 3) actually lets you shoot. case 2) shoots after the Attack action has resolved.

This is MY general ruling. I supposed it was apparent by my (supposed) apparent change of person.

If your trigger is, 'if he goes for his gun', then the DM describes exactly what he does. If you perceive what he actually does as 'going for his gun' (skill contest may be required) then you can choose to execute your Readied action. Again, no part of the trigger involved him actually shooting you, therefore you don't have to wait for an action subsequent to your trigger is resolved! Only for the trigger itself to resolve, and you make damn sure that you don't choose his actual attack as your trigger!

This is exactly why your player has to state a CLEAR trigger. And this is not. You shouldn't be bothered each time to describe each half of a millimeter of cruising hand, to understand whn your player intended his action to take place. It is that simple, yet the fact that his idea of "go for the gun" and your idea of "go for the gun" might be different and worth a roll, or even a roll to see if he actually makes it fast enough, should be an indication that something is not right. Rules for simplicity and pacing. If you want to rule it that way, that's your call. For me, i try to avoid it as much as possible.

There is nothing in the rules for the Ready action that require the trigger to be an Action In Combat!

No, and it has not to be. It can be movement, for example. It can also be "the action that has no name and it's really not an Use Object action" that lets you activate a magic item.

It is perfectly permissible to define your trigger as 'if he starts casting a spell',
No it's not. You are no mind reader. You cannot know that "he is about to cast a spell", but "oh he started casting" it's too late, the casting comes to pass before your action, because the trigger is the casting, not the starting. No matter how much a player can complain about it.

because 'casting a spell' is 'the VSM components', not 'the spell effect beginning'.
Citation, please. Also, the trigger for your second example would be "a spell has been cast". And the first is "when he casts a spell" by your own definiton.

The trigger is the VSM components. By rule, your Readied action resolves after the trigger but before anything else. So the VSM components complete, then your reaction/Readied action resolves, then the spell effect begins, if it still can.
The trigger has to be an action. Not an Action, just an act. The act has come to pass. VSM is not an action. There's no rule ANYWHERE that describes HOW a spell is cast, except that you can use the free hand you have to have for material components to make the gestures. This is it. If any of this was not true, you could

- define the Trigger as "rock", making the whole thing meaningless
- singlehandedly chose how your target is doing something, it's not in your sphere of influence.
- break the "trigger has to pass", houseruling.

There's nothing that states that the casting of a spell is nothing more than a flick of a staff and the word "peanut" uttered in chinese, that it can happen at the same time. The casting of a spell is a single action, and actions CANNOT be interrupted unless exceptions.

Your Readied action hasn't interrupted the trigger (the VSM components) at all! But your Readied Action still resolves before the spell duration begins because the spell effect was never the trigger!

Do you get it yet?
Who cares? The spell has been cast. If it's a charme, your attack is going to hit before the target has a chance to utter a word other than the one needed for V. His target is charmed, you roll for damage, caster is dead. Any difference? No. So?
 
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There's no reaction status. There's the same difference that runs between "a melee weapon attack" and " an attack with a melee weapon". If you can't use the reaction to fire your action, you can't fire your action, and that's obvious.
I'm not sure what you're talking about but using and taking reaction is no different and has nothing to do with "a melee weapon attack" vs " an attack with a melee weapon", which BTW are no different neither as per the Devs (@JeremyECrawford A melee weapon attack is a melee attack with a weapon). Spell casting time reaction is the action used and is no different than the reaction used to make an OA, just like a casting time of 1 action is no different than the 1 action you use to take the Attack action. You insist on difference that i believe just aren't there.

The most legal is sticking to the raw. Readied action take place after the action they get triggered from. They can't interrupt an action that's going on.
Can you quote the rules where this is written?

PHB, 190, Reactions: "Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction."

PHB, 193, "Ready" section. "To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction."
"When the lrigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger."
Nothing you quoted says reactions can't interrupt an action and has to be taken after it. It says trigger which is not the same thing and doesn't necessarily mean an action since it can be any perceiveable circumstances.

So i will ask again, can you quote the rules where you say reactions can't interrupt actions is written?
 
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