D&D 5E Legendary, Lair, and BOSS Actions

[Nebulous]

There are no Boss Actions (yet) in 5e, that's why I wanted to discuss it. This thread broke off from another one earlier. Now, I love the legendary and lair actions in 5e, I think it is a fantastic idea, and I think it can even use a further subclass, let's call them "Boss actions" for now. This does the same thing as legendary actions, but it's for middle level and lower level bad guys. My idea was that it would make your occasional BBEG more interesting without it having to be a high level beholder or dragon or whatnot.

Someone else made the point: "Playing devil's advocate, wouldn't that lessen the impact that such unique actions give high level "legendary" monsters?"

So, discuss.

My idea is that it would be watered down abilities, for example, 1-3 times per encounter your boss adds +3/+5 to a saving throw instead of automatically saving. Three times per encounter your boss gets a special action, such as a strangehold attack, a grappling slam/pin/throw, or some other ability relevant to their build. It would not be as consistently repeatable as a legendary action round after round....

 

[Henrix]

Sounds like you could basically use the legendary action thing but not have the points renew each round (call it a short rest).

And I'd vastly prefer it a single legendary save than a bonus a couple of times. So much simpler.
Or the ability to get advantage, if you don't want it automatic, but not a fiddly bonus.

Or just give the the Luck feat.

 

[Nebulous]

A single auto save is better idea. Yes I like that. And keeping the mechanics of 3 actions but they don't renew until after a short rest. Ok I think that would neatly sum up a boss action for a monster of any level. Any more suggestions?

 

[KarinsDad]

This brings up another interesting point.

How does the DM handle autosaves?

I have encountered players in the past that are bothered by autosave type things. One guy in particular I know would cast a spell at a creature, the creature autosaves, and the first words out of his mouth would be "That's bullxxxx.".

For creatures like Dragons, sure. Players expect them racially to just be bad boys that have amazing abilities.

But Joe Boss? If the NPCs/monsters can manage to get this type of ability, there are players who will want to figure out how they can get a once per day autosave.

Alternatively, the DM could pretend to roll behind the screen, but in our group, DMs always roll in front of the players, so this would be unusual.

So if a given DM wanted to give autosave to one of his bosses, what are some good ways to handle this? One way could be to roll an advantaged save (or an advantaged save with a reroll of the lower dice, kind of like combining advantage with luck). In reality, that would just be a feint (i.e. rolling for the sake of rolling), but trust the dice to go super cold on the fake autosave roll.


Instead of faking it, a DM could just not use autosave for non-legendary monsters. He could use advantage once per day (for lieutenants) , or advantage plus luck combined once per day (for a boss). Or if that is too strong, just advantage for a boss and nothing for lieutenants.

Similar result, less potent and aggravating to those players who do not like autosaves.

 

[thalmin]

Or just give the the Luck feat.

This seems like the most elegant solution. And the players can get it if they want it, so no foul.

 

[steeldragons]

I think that it's a little too broad a range of possible creatures/villain/"boss" [though I hate that terminology]types to really give an across the board mechanic like this.

The 3rd level fighter "Bandit King", the local thieves' guildmaster, the Old One cult leader, the [Hill/Frost/Fire] Giant chief/jarl/king, the single [normal] minotaur who constructed and his own labyrinth [complete with traps galore and populated it with other creatures], the [normal or slightly "above average"] hydra being worshipped by the bullywugs in the center of the swamp as "Tendrilikus the Evergrowing", the evil Captain of the Honor Guard of an evil tyrant wizard [who becomes the "boss" since the wizard is off at some other location], an ogre mage [doing just about anything, period], the major domo halfling mastermind who slew the good baron and entranced/enslaved the local population by contaminating the water supply with some alchemical yellow-muskcreeper potion to turn the surrounding countryside into her own personal "Theme Park of Doooooom"...these are all potential, individual, "top villain" encounters for low-/mid-level adventurers.

Does it make sense that encountering all of them should lead the players to expect the same "extra special abilities"?

For simplicity's sake, the "Luck feat for all" or "Always has advantage in their lair/hideout/homebase" seem like the broadest possibilities. "Autosave +3 bonus actions" doesn't necessarily make sense for every possibility. So I'd rather there be nothing, letting the DM get creative with their BBEG's, than some kind of RAW blanket ability simply for the sake of saying "Yuh huh! He can too do that. Look see, it's in the book..." If you want your [low-/mid-level] Big Bad to be special, give them a special thing or two, if you want.

But...to summarize...No. I don't think this kind of "sub class" to the Legendary/Lair Actions of actual legendary creatures is necessary nor does anything but make the truly legendary creatures/actions seem...not so special. "Who cares if the dragon can do X? Remember that punk highwayman in the Sherwood Forest? He had this kinda extra stuff too and we took him out. 'Member?" Makes them watered down, I guess. YMMV.

 

[Nebulous]

This brings up another interesting point.

How does the DM handle autosaves?

I have encountered players in the past that are bothered by autosave type things. One guy in particular I know would cast a spell at a creature, the creature autosaves, and the first words out of his mouth would be "That's bullxxxx.".

For creatures like Dragons, sure. Players expect them racially to just be bad boys that have amazing abilities.

But Joe Boss? If the NPCs/monsters can manage to get this type of ability, there are players who will want to figure out how they can get a once per day autosave.

Alternatively, the DM could pretend to roll behind the screen, but in our group, DMs always roll in front of the players, so this would be unusual.

So if a given DM wanted to give autosave to one of his bosses, what are some good ways to handle this? One way could be to roll an advantaged save (or an advantaged save with a reroll of the lower dice, kind of like combining advantage with luck). In reality, that would just be a feint (i.e. rolling for the sake of rolling), but trust the dice to go super cold on the fake autosave roll.


Instead of faking it, a DM could just not use autosave for non-legendary monsters. He could use advantage once per day (for lieutenants) , or advantage plus luck combined once per day (for a boss). Or if that is too strong, just advantage for a boss and nothing for lieutenants.

Similar result, less potent and aggravating to those players who do not like autosaves.

All good points. I know that as a DM in 4e, i absolutely hated when a player would negate a roll. "No, that doesn't happen. I have such and such power." Here in 5e, we have legendary actions essentially doing the same thing, but more rarely. I haven't used them in play yet, but if i was a player and felt like i was being clever and pulling out the big guns, it would be frustrating for the DM to say, without even rolling a die, "No, the monster saves. Sorry. Oh, and now it gets to attack you directly too."

As a DM, i think it is awesome! But that's because we have to think in survival strategies of the monsters who are most likely going to die.

 

[Joe Liker]

Has anyone come up with a way to calculate XP/CR for legendary monsters and/or monsters in lairs? I'm referring to a normal monster that the DM has added these abilities to.

 

[Nebulous]

But...to summarize...No. I don't think this kind of "sub class" to the Legendary/Lair Actions of actual legendary creatures is necessary nor does anything but make the truly legendary creatures/actions seem...not so special. "Who cares if the dragon can do X? Remember that punk highwayman in the Sherwood Forest? He had this kinda extra stuff too and we took him out. 'Member?" Makes them watered down, I guess. YMMV.

Absolutely, this kind of option is not going to be for everyone. I personally find many monsters in the 5e MM to be bland, just hit points and attacks. Not all, but a lot. Take the sahuagin baron for example. Higher hit points, AC and better attacks than its lesser brethren. Nothing wrong with that of course, but if I wanted to make my lone sahuagin baron boss into something more meaningful, it would be fun to layer on some boss powers.

Off the top of my head:
1) Pull an adjacent ally to intercept an attack.
2) Curse of drowning
3) Flurry attack (x4 attacks)

Or maybe just one of those, the DM has to choose from the list. It resets after a short rest.

To me, it feels more like a precursor to superior legendary actions, which are repeatable.

 

[Tormyr]

Has anyone come up with a way to calculate XP/CR for legendary monsters and/or monsters in lairs? I'm referring to a normal monster that the DM has added these abilities to.

Lairs add 1 to the CR (Lich as an example). The Dracolich template adds 1 to CR. I have a feeling the Legendary traits and actions add 1 or 2 to the CR as well.