D&D 5E Legendary monsters are not solo monsters

[Celtavian]

Lots of factors affect whether a creature makes a good solo encounter. It can definitely vary from table to table depending on the capability of the DM and players.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The legendary ability's damage is counted for the monster's DPR (Damage Per Round), and DPR is part of offensive CR, and that's part of the final CR of the beastie...

Right, but a CR 17 Legendary creature is worth no more XP than a CR 17 non-legendary creature. Since CR is a "you must be this tall to ride" sign, there's no difference between the two creatures when it comes to an encounter budget.

Like, a CR 1 critter is 200 XP (a medium encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters). This is a "solo" for 1st-level characters because it eats up all the XP for the encounter, but it includes non-legendary creatures like "a lion."

A hypothetical CR 1 Legendary critter would still be 200 XP and would be as much a solo for the party as a lion would be.

Which is to support that idea that Legendary is not equal to "Solo."

...though this now has me thinking about what it would take to make a "daily" monster...hmm...

 

[Dausuul]

I heard this in 4E, too, where people claimed solo monsters weren't solo monsters and you were clearly supposed to give them minions. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

Legendary monsters in 5E, like solos in 4E, are obviously designed to be able to take on whole parties singlehandedly. You don't have to use them like that, but the whole purpose of giving them Legendary Resistance and legendary actions is to make it so you can. I want to be able to run dragon encounters where the PCs fight a dragon, not a dragon-and-mooks. How often do you encounter fictional or mythological dragons or similar monsters with a gang of mooks in tow?

PC spellcasters will just have to figure out how to deal with it. This may mean taking a support role for the fighter, just like the fighter takes a support role for you when the party is attacked by a horde of hobgoblins. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Fralex]

I see Legendary Resistance as more of a DM tool to make the fights more intense. Really devastating magic that is powerful enough to make most problems go away will not make a legendary creature go away. But casters who make clever use of less scary spells will be able to sneak in their damage without making the monster want to spend a usage of the Resistance in case they have to deal with something more powerful later. Or, you could try to trick the monster into wasting all its Legendary Resistance on slightly weaker spells, and then try to hit it with the strongest thing you've got.

It sort of causes the creature to have three "built-in" fudged die rolls the DM is allowed to use without guilt if they think the battle shouldn't end just yet.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I disagree with the OP. Legendary monsters are intended to be solos imo (they dont have to be, of course), and they can work just fine in that regard.

The DM knows his party best, their capabilities, their weaknesses. Just keep pushing the level up till your reach the challenge appropriate for your part. If your party is very high level, instead perhaps add spellcasting levels, or add some epic boons, or add more magic items, or add different legendary actions or lair actions - etc etc

 

[Nebulous]

I disagree with the OP. Legendary monsters are intended to be solos imo (they dont have to be, of course), and they can work just fine in that regard.

The DM knows his party best, their capabilities, their weaknesses. Just keep pushing the level up till your reach the challenge appropriate for your part. If your party is very high level, instead perhaps add spellcasting levels, or add some epic boons, or add more magic items, or add different legendary actions or lair actions - etc etc

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel. I think they make quite nice solo bosses, especially in a lair with some crazy unexpected lair attacks.

 

[Quickleaf]

-- The most pressing need is a way to deal with "save or suck" that is not as harsh as Legendary Resistance. I have seen a few suggestions, but I'd like to see more. One option would be to give solo monsters higher saving throw bonuses across the board. This is a rather swingy way to deal with it, allowing the spellcaster to attempt to cut the fight short, but with a greatly reduced chance (but not zero) chance of success. Another option is something like Legedary Resistance that only kicks in on "second round" saving throws -- it lets the spell take effect the first round, but then the monster can automatically break free on its next turn. What are some other good options?

While I disagree with the premise that legendary monsters aren't suitable as solo monsters, I do think you've raised a legitimate criticism of Legendary Resistance in that it can feel overly punitive to spellcaster players.

Personally I think Legendary Resistance is mediocre design for three reasons:

1. Legendary Resistance is just a buffer window. Its usage is based on #/day. This means that eventually a party will wear down the monster's Legendary Resistance and then the stun-locking can commence. Basically it's a buffer window to buy the monster a round free of stun-locking to do cool stuff.
2. When Legendary Resistance works, nothing happens. "Nothing happens" is probably the least fun thing for a player to hear from their DM. Which is why players who realize they're facing a monster with Legendary Resistance may prefer to cast spells with "half damage on a save" effects. Spellcaster players who lack such spells are SOL.
3. There is no flavor to Legendary Resistance. Now, a great DM can make this work by, for example, never using a Lich's Legendary Resistsnce against attacks dealing radiant damage, or describing the Lich's Legendary Resistance as magical wards granted by various magical trinkets (which a thief might pilfer or a ranger might called shot). However, without a great DM what this does is shut down player creativity for workarounds.

I want to try working up a replacement trait for Legendary Resistance. It's got to be something always active (unlike Legendary Resistance), is not binary succeed/fail so a spell can have *some* effect or perhaps the slot is not expended (unlike Legendary Resistance), and has flavor/specificity which encouraged creative thinking and unique strategy (unlike Legendary Resistance).

Any suggestions?

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

Any suggestions?

I've been toying with the idea that instead of completely negating an effect the monster spends a use of it's legendary resistance to downgrade a harmful effect to a lesser one. I'd start by sorting the conditions into like groups and then ranking the groups from least harmful to most harmful.

For example you could group movement conditions which would include being paralyzed and being restrained. So if a PC casts hold monster and the big dragon fails, it can then spend 1 of its legendary resistances to downgrade the effect to being just restrained instead of paralyzed.
Another example could be downgrading Dominate monster to the effect of charm person.

This would get tricky with spells that don't have obvious downgrades, but I think the general idea is worth testing out.

 

[Nebulous]

I want to try working up a replacement trait for Legendary Resistance. It's got to be something always active (unlike Legendary Resistance), is not binary succeed/fail so a spell can have *some* effect or perhaps the slot is not expended (unlike Legendary Resistance), and has flavor/specificity which encouraged creative thinking and unique strategy (unlike Legendary Resistance).

Any suggestions?

Let me ponder on this, but i like your idea.

Edit: my first thought, for better or worse, is that the details of what happens with Legendary Resistance will need to be listed individually for each monster to allow for the creative description. But i agree, the general blandness of the trait needs to be changed.

 

[Riley37]

Tell me more about Beowulf's use of teamwork against Grendel, and tell me more about Grendel's minions?

D&D is a tool which can be used to tell a wide variety of stories. If you want to disallow solo heroes, and disallow legendary monsters which act alone, then good luck with that... at your table.