Legends and Lore April 2, 2012

Meh, as far as hard coding game changes at different points - it's not like this is a new idea. AD&D was predicated on the idea as was BECMI (which hard codes it even more strongly). 3e tried to allow you to dungeon crawl all the time at every level, but, the epic level rules were ... not well received and even without hard coding it into the rules, the game fundamentally changed about every 7 levels or so.

Generally the fundamental changes came about with the casters really. There's a reason E6 ends at 6th level.

So, if the game has always undergone fundamental changes about every 1/3 of the expected run of a campaign (1-12 in AD&D seems about right, 1-15 in 3e seems to work, 4e I don't know), why not actually write with that expectation in mind.

3e was predicated on being able to advance from 1-20 in 12 months. I think in actual play, that wound up being a bit ambitious and 1-20 generally took about 18-24 months for most groups. And, most groups don't play campaigns that long. You can surf back in En World to see poll after poll that points to campaigns generally petering out about 18 months or so. Yes, you have the long ones, but, the vast majority are 18 months or less.

What's the point of having advancement rules that takes 3 years to hit the end of advancement if most of the players only play for 12 months at a campaign?

Me, I LOVE the idea of campaign shifts being tied to level. Sure, you could be king of a nation at 3rd level in any edition, but, let's be honest here, it isn't all that likely. It's an outlier at best. King of a nation is likely somewhere in the early double digit levels in any edition. So, if that's true, why not give support for the players that fits that concept?
 

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Me, I LOVE the idea of campaign shifts being tied to level. Sure, you could be king of a nation at 3rd level in any edition, but, let's be honest here, it isn't all that likely. It's an outlier at best. King of a nation is likely somewhere in the early double digit levels in any edition. So, if that's true, why not give support for the players that fits that concept?

Tying campaign shift to level is well and good, but it needs to be modular as:

A) Not everyone wants to do so, or not all at the same levels.

B) There is more than one direction to shift. Some campaigns might move into politics and realm building. Some might start planar campaigning. Some might go a spelljammering. Some might move into organizing a worldwide crusade against (or for?) the undead.

And the tools needed for spelljamming or planehopping are very different from those needed for realm building or politicing.

In the olde days at 9th you hit your name level and started tying yourself down. Build a keep and found a realm, or build a tower and found a mages guild. But it's not the only option in town.
 

My group plays for 4 hours or so every 2 to 3 weeks - so another "2 hrs per week on average" group. The levelling rate is around 5 per year. But we are very stable - the campaign is currently 15th level, and I expect we will play through Epic tier.

If you level every 3 sessions, and you have about 3 sessions per month (one a week, excepting a holiday/crunch time/whatever miss), then you're going to get about 12 functional levels of play.

I think those 12 levels can be in any style of tier.

<snip>

This means not making a 30-level game that anyone only sees 1/3rd of at a time. This means making a 15 or 10 level game that everyone sees the vast majority of, and being able to give it different glosses depending on what kind of flavor you want for this campaign.
I think this is a very interesting idea (and the HeroQuest revised rules use a version of it), but wouldn't it cause a riot among the D&D audience? - given the amount of "wiggle room" it seems to imply between mechanical stats and flavour?
 

Me, I LOVE the idea of campaign shifts being tied to level. Sure, you could be king of a nation at 3rd level in any edition, but, let's be honest here, it isn't all that likely. It's an outlier at best. King of a nation is likely somewhere in the early double digit levels in any edition. So, if that's true, why not give support for the players that fits that concept?


The king is likely double-digit level? Is the king even likely to have been an adventurer? In games that resemble medieval Europe or Asia, there is a good chance the king has never seen close combat, and has the title due to heredity or politics.

Likewise, an adventuring mercenary, especially one not specifically doing service for the local ruler, isn't going to be granted a title and land. I hated that automatic "name-level" stuff in AD&D.

Having rules for these shifts is a must, but they don't have to be tied to any particular level.
 

So that's useful to know because it helps give you a baseline target for these things: Okay, if we can fit an entire short "adventure" into one night, complete with all of D&D's major features (combat, interaction, exploration, resouce management, tactics, strategy, etc.), we've got something that even someone who only plays D&D once for two hours will get a handle on -- something we can market as a casual game -- and something that can scale well. Stacking adventures can make for a more complex, powerful game, where each time you meet, you can get something done and walk away feeling like you've done something other than roll dice with your time.
There are three aspects, here, I think, and each one requires a different analysis.

First there is session length. In a sense, for the current discussion this is not that important because as many folk are saying, they might not have 2 hour sessions, but they do average around 2 hours per week of playing time. Whether you are playing for 2 hours once each week or for 8 hours once every month the desired rate of "progress" through the levels (for a given meaning of "level") will likely be similar. Nevertheless it does figure in what I'll say later about methods for "expanding" the basic "2 hour adventure".

Second is the length of time between 'level ups'. This mainly sets the fastest desirable rate of progress, I think, because the limiting factor is that players need enough time to get acquainted with the new "stuff" that they got with their new level before progressing onto a new one. Ideally, I think you should just be getting comfortable with your 'level X' abilities when the boost to 'level X+1' comes along. In the greater scheme of things, this really only helps decide how the scope of the campaign arc/sustained play sequence is broken up. The 'answer' to it depends on details of the game design too much to be really meaningful generally. As long as not many folks are levelling up mid-session it should all work out.

Third is the length of the 'sustained play' sequence. This sets the scope of the game. If average players can cope with only X amount of added complexity per hour, and the "attention span" of the average group for a given game is Y hours for a "campaign" or "story arc", then X * Y is the maximum complexity that the average group will be able to digest in one sequence of sustained play.

This third bit of information is abstruse and difficult to gauge, but is interesting. If the answer turns out to be that the "average group" can cope with 12 major character capabilities (to pick a fairly abstract unit of measure for illustrative purposes) in one campaign, and they want to go from 'clueless farm boy' to 'demigod', then the span of those 12 abilities is going to be pretty extreme. If, on the other hand, the "average group" can cope with 36 major character character capabilities in a campaign and want to go from 'tough farm boy' to 'heartthrob of the local girls for what he did', then the degree of granularity of each "capability" is going to be relatively small.

My major worry with this is that, while it is fine for the "average group", where does it leave the non-average group? Or, to pose the question from WotC's viewpoint, what is the variance on the "average complexity" that can be coped with by a gaming group?

This leads into how a desire for increased complexity scope can be factored in - of which more anon.

Those who play for longer can always fit more in. It's not hard to pad out something that can take an hour in D&D into four or more.
Right - but how does one "pad out" those sessions? I suggest there are basically three ways:

- Add length. Just play out two adventures (or a more complex adventure) in a 4 hour session instead of one "standard" adventure in a 2 hour session. This method should have no issues with the schema as designed for the "2 hour crowd", because you are essentially playing out N 2-hour sessions back-to-back.

- Add breadth. Add in new "sub-games" for ruling domains, running farms or workshops, intriguing at court or whatever that are not linearly part of the basic 'adventure game' that is the assumed staple of D&D but rather runs along in parallel and occasionally touches the "adventure game". The 'touching' can be via earnings from one being used in the other, or via objectives for one being set by the other - both of those should work in either direction. This method should have no issues with the schema as designed for 2 hour play, since (notionally) only 2 hours of "adventuring" play is happening in each longer session, unless this method is actually combined with "adding length", above.

- Add depth. Modify character abilities so that they have more subtlety of effect. This increases their complexity in use and so requires more thought of the player to really grok their new capabilities at each level. It may require more time to play out the same scenes (thus making the content of the "2 hour session" take longer to play through), but it might not, depending on the capabilities of the play group. What it will do, however, is require more game time for the players to become conversant with the abilities they gain at each level, because each added ability has more possible uses. This becomes a problem with the "standard" rate of level gain - it may be too fast for this group.

This last mode might actually allow a route for groups with a longer "complexity scope" or "X * Y" tolerance to get a campaign that is satisfying for them, but they will still butt up against the fact that the "standard" levelling scheme will be too fast for this style of play. I worry that the design goals for the system as a whole will limit the scope for adding "depth" to the gameplay.

As I write this, though, I am thinking that maybe there is a way around this. If 'modules' for added depth were produced that recommended modifications to the level advancement track, maybe it could be pulled off. If the basic system were utterly rigorous in its design underpinnings, perhaps well-designed 'deepening' modules could integrate to maintain balance and slow advancement to get a good "long game". Or maybe too few players want such a game for WotC to bother, so the only available game will be quick and shallow...

Who knows? If the flexibility for all these styles really is WotC's aim, and they pull it off, I'll be mightily impressed.
 

My group meets every week for 3-4 hours. I would like to be able to make it from level 1 to the end of epic tier in a one-year campaign. I also don't want there to be too few levels such that there is little granularity with power increases.

Working the math on this, let's assume the 2-hour a week standard:
2 hours a week for 12 months (ideal) = 96 hours over 48 sessions.
48 sessions/30 levels = 1 level-up every 1-2 sessions

That seems fast to me, making me question my initial expectations. To make it more reasonable and give players a longer time in between level-ups to get used to their new bonuses (powers, feats, whatever), it would mean either extending the expected length per session or reducing the number of levels.

It gets even worse when you consider a group that can only play one 8-hour session a month, which averages out to 2 hours/week but isn't equivalent.
8 hours 12 times a year = 96 hours, BUT
1 session every month for 12 months = 12, versus 48 in above calculation.
That means the characters would level up either halfway through each session, or gain 2-3 levels per each session.

I would have to see a proposal for a game with a maximum of 12 levels, because if we're taking the game from level-1 lowly adventurers to max-level god-slayers, then 12 levels doesn't seem like enough discrete power increases in that framework.

This could be expanded by lopping off epic-level content so that players can savor their experience at each level more + have more discrete power increases. But then you lose exciting high-level, planehopping, god-slaying fun.

So, at the end of it all, I'm not really sure what I want.
 


The king is likely double-digit level? Is the king even likely to have been an adventurer? In games that resemble medieval Europe or Asia, there is a good chance the king has never seen close combat, and has the title due to heredity or politics.

Likewise, an adventuring mercenary, especially one not specifically doing service for the local ruler, isn't going to be granted a title and land. I hated that automatic "name-level" stuff in AD&D.

Having rules for these shifts is a must, but they don't have to be tied to any particular level.

Well, I was basing this on pretty much every published setting for D&D since Greyhawk. Even way back then, if you look at the original Greyhawk boxed set, the lords of various kingdoms are double digit levels by and large.

And this has never changed. Pick up virtually any setting book from Greyhawk to Eberron and it's the same thing. You very, very rarely see a 3rd level king. But you do regularly see a 12th level one.
 

Well, I was basing this on pretty much every published setting for D&D since Greyhawk. Even way back then, if you look at the original Greyhawk boxed set, the lords of various kingdoms are double digit levels by and large.

And this has never changed. Pick up virtually any setting book from Greyhawk to Eberron and it's the same thing. You very, very rarely see a 3rd level king. But you do regularly see a 12th level one.

It's weird, though, and I never liked it. Some campaign settings don't stat out NPCs like that (my preference), and in 4e, it simply wasn't needed.

I guess I would like to see becoming a ruler completely decoupled from a particular level range. I think having guidelines in a module is a great idea, even rules in the DMG. I don't, however, think it should be the default. It was default in AD&D, and it was rarely used in my AD&D games.
 

But, that's the thing. If you try to decouple level from in game power, it gets tricky. After all, if my character is a high level lord, for example, and he's 3rd level, well, he should have the wealth on hand to deck himself out at a much, much higher level. It's not like he should be following the wealth by level guidelines at all. So, you run into balance issues right off the bat.
 

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