Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

[FireLance]

One of my players once insulted a skeleton so hard it died.

It's the arcane force behind it that makes it effective! Vicious mockery is to a regular insult what shout is to a normal holler.

 

[Someone]

It's the arcane force behind it that makes it effective! Vicious mockery is to a regular insult what shout is to a normal holler.

He was the bard who said "Ni"! Those who encountered him seldom lived to tell the tale.

 

[LurkAway]

It's the arcane force behind it that makes it effective! Vicious mockery is to a regular insult what shout is to a normal holler.

I know magic is magic, but if one explanation is as good as any other then...

Three skeletons risen from the dead, their bones knit together with arcane weaving, their hollow skulls lit with dim artificial intelligence. They are commanded to attack any intruders. Their weakly arcane-powered minds understand just enough to fulfill their directive. Creator = master. Creator's apprentices and pests like mice = ignore. Everything else = attack.

One day, after their creator has long died, among rat dung, decayed furnishing, moth-eaten tapestry, the three skeletons -- now covered in an inch layer of dust -- still stand there, lacking the sentience and common sense to just leave.

And then the door bursts open and 4 men enter. The skeletons animate. Combat ensues. And the bard summons magic to viciously cry out "Ni! You stupid bag of bones -- you're dead! You don't deserve the spark of life!"

[pause]

Although everyone in the room hears the cry, the spell only affects 1 target. So...

The other PCs hear it, but they're unaffected. Fortunately, this insult was not directed at them, so they're safe.

The first skeleton is unaffected because his hearing isn't so good and the warlord was also shouting at the same time. "What do you say? That I'm in bed? What's a bed? Hey warlord, can you stop shouting whatever that is, I can't hear the other guy!"

The second skeleton hears the mockery and thinks "OMG, he's right, I AM dead. What am I doing here? Oh wait.. were you talking to THAT skeleton? You weren't talking to me? Oh phew, I thought I you were talking to me. OK, never mind, carry on."

The third skeleton thinks with his dim intelligence "Man = bad, must attack. OTOH, alas, I have no purpose in life. Good bye cruel world, good bye!" and dramatically throws up a skeletal hand to his forehead and keels over.

[unpause]

DM: OK, the skeleton is dead.

Next player: Cool! I'm going to poison the next skeleton...

 

[vagabundo]

4e Skeletons are immune to diseases and poisons.

 

[Dausuul]

One of my players once insulted a skeleton so hard it died.

This is why I don't allow bards in my 4E games any more.

 

[KarinsDad]

Did you have the same reaction in 3e with Extraordinary abilities? Because Ex abilities are exactly the same as Martial powers. They are not inherently magical (can't be dispelled, work in an anti-magic zone) but they are certainly not normal either.

I treat Martial powers in the same way. Ex abilities allowed my monk to effectively Feather Fall, dodge fireballs, be immune to diseases, and actually granted me spell resistance and speak to any living creature. Somehow my training as a monk, completely non magical, renders me immune to magic and allows me to automatically communicate with anything in the universe.

To me, there isn't a huge difference here between 3.5's Ex abilities and 4e's Martial powers.

And, let's be honest here, the Supernatural abilities were just a patch to allow certain types of casters to bypass spell resistance.

I've never really gotten why people have such a difficult time swallowing a fighter having powers and yet never, ever complained about, say, a monk, doing the exact same thing.

Actually, I did have a bit of a problem with Extraordinary Abilities as well. There was magic, there was supernatural, there was extraordinary, and there was mundane. I never really understood why extraordinary and supernatural couldn't be the same category.

I have no problem with a supernatural power source. As an example, I consider the Primal power source to be a supernatural power source, not a natural power source (the Martial power source should be a natural power source). The ability to change yourself into a tree or an animal is "outside the laws of nature", hence, supernatural.

I do think that the power sources should be clearly defined and the Martial power source should be the "mundane" one. No healing. No teleport. No flying. Especially at heroic levels. But, the ability to kick the snot out of the bad guys with just a simple weapon. That should be the strength of the Martial power source. MARTIAL. Hit point damage on a heavier scale compare to the other power sources. But, very little in the way of effects. And the effects that do occur should be martial-like. For example, knocking a foe prone, shifting, and at higher levels, stunning a foe. But not giving buffs to allies and not giving heals to allies.

A Warlock or other Arcane or Psionic should not be able to damage foes like a Martial PC can. The Warlock should be throwing out effects more than the Martial PC can, but hit point damage should be the realm of the Martial classes. Effects should be more the realm of other Power sources.

The Arcane power source should be good at throwing out elemental effects and illusions and many other "magical effects".

The Divine power source should be good at throwing out buffs and debuffs. The gods should be assisting, not directly throwing out the mega hit point damage and mega effects.

The Psionic power source should be good at mind games and telekinesis.

And virtually no power source should be handing out teleport at low levels. Just like virtually no power source should be handing out fly or invisibility at low levels.

The power sources should open up a bit at Paragon level. The Martial characters at those levels can do the Wuxia type stuff a bit. Great leaps, hiding in shadows better, etc. But still no teleporting. At Epic, it becomes demi-god like. Still martial in tone, but able to do things that no normal man can do.

I'm ok with that.

I just have an issue with things like the Original Come and Get It that came straight out of acquiring aggro out of an MMORPG.

Supernatural taunting isn't martial. Sure, you could probably introduce it at mid-paragon, but it's game mechanics driving flavor, not the other way around.


By the way, I think that the "role" concept is what messed a lot of this up. We HAVE to have a Martial Leader who can heal like every other leader. We have to have a Martial Controller.

No. The game doesn't have to have those things. These are artificial metagame concepts that took over. Again, the game mechanics driving instead of the flavor driving.

Power sources are flavor. The flavor should be the motivating idea behind the game design because then narrative and game mechanics do not clash as often. The game mechanics should be there to allow the narrative to work, not the other way around.


Seriously. Magic isn't magic when every PC can do it. The flavor of magic is gone when every power source can do nearly every type of effect in the game system. Each power source should have clearly defined strengths and clearly defined effects that just cannot be done in the power source.

 

[FireLance]

Although everyone in the room hears the cry, the spell only affects 1 target. So...

The same argument could apply to command, or (in previous editions) suggestion and power word: kill. Somehow, the magic singles out just one target even though everyone (presumably) hears the words of the somatic components.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, what the rules say, is for the DM to make a ruling (Rules Compendium, p.107). It specifically spells it out: powers that target creatures may also target objects in the area. That's not a houserule, it's a judgment call, and one the rules specifically tell the DM to make.

Find me a DM unreasonable enough to rule that a fireball won't damage a room full of paper and wooden tables.

That rule has only been around for a little over a year. For two years, that rule did not exist. It's good that WotC added that rule.

But, for two years, the lack of that rule contributed to some people feeling dissatisfied with the game because some DMs played the game according to RAW.

 

[LurkAway]

The same argument could apply to command, or (in previous editions) suggestion and power word: kill. Somehow, the magic singles out just one target even though everyone (presumably) hears the words of the somatic components.

Perhaps, but the fact that an insult (even a magical-powered one) affects a dim-witted skeleton is adding insult to injury IMO. The classic mythologies about bards had them enchant humans and humanoids, not animated bags of bones. It's not cinematic either -- a scene like that would evoke sniggers from the audience.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Story elements being added during play is the meat and potatoes of a whole slew of games.

Totally agree. I just don't believe D&D needs to be one of them.

Honestly, I do agree with you here. You're just not going to be able to include both sides of the coin into the same game. Previous editions were much more on the "Story elements are added after play" and 4e has leaned a lot more on some of the more Indie games and added lots of "story elements are added during play" stuff. Trying to reconcile the two into one game just won't work.

Right again. A fractured player base is inevitable at this point. This is why I think the designers should pick a direction and commit completely to it.
A design that tries to capture both sides of the coin will more than likely be seen as too nebulous and unfocused by fans of both playstyles.

The thing is, if they decide to go the indie storytelling route, what about the future? That style might be popular with a lot of folks right now but suppose some new style becomes all the rage with the indie crowd in the next 10-15 years. Will D&D abandon thier storytelling fans to pursue the latest trends in the industry to better fit in with all the cool kids?

That road leads to a loss of brand identity.