Legends & Lore: Clas Groups

[JRRNeiklot]

Okay, so I guess the question is, why shouldn't a Bard or something be able to use a Staff of the Magi, if he's capable of hitting high level arcane spells (at very high level) and is very knowledgeable (he's a bard, so very knowledgeable, and he's also a caster)?

And, another question: what level should a Wizard be able to use the Staff of the Magi? And why? I think answering these honest questions might help me in this conversation. I'm not sure how you're coming to your conclusions (Wizards should get to use it, but not Bards or Rangers), so this might help me out.

(Full disclosure: You're way too old school for me to agree with, in the end, I think. But I still think it'd be productive to work out where you're coming from.)

Sure, as you say, I come from a first edition background. Wizards, magic users, etc are learned, scholarly folk who have dedicated their lives to learning about magic. Rangers are dabblers, and bards, well, don't get me started. Bards shouldn't even have arcane spells, but since they do, they also fall under the dabbler mantle. They just can't make it work. Nor should a wizard be able to charm someone with a song.

As for level, level one, if he can get his hands on one, but that shouldn't be very likely to happen.

 

[steeldragons]

RE: the Staff of the Magi question...

It could be keyed to casting level? I mean, I don't recall/know off the top of my head what its powers are, but maybe something like for any class other than wizards, you must be able to cast arcane spells of matching levels to access each suite of powers of the Staff of the Magi."

...so other mages would have to be capable of casting 3rd level spells to use the Fireball/Lightning bolt powers of the staff...maybe 4th level or 5th level spells for the staff's full abilities. So it would require a minimum of a 7th or 9th level wizard to fully master the staff.

Would that keep a bard from using it...no, I suppose not, once they could use 3rd, 4th, 5th level spells. But I'm also of the opinion that a powerful enough bard could/should hve the knowledge, if not raw ability, to "jimmy" the staff to function for them.

Other than that, I would prefer a "wizards only" stamp on the Staff of the Magi, specifilly.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Sure, as you say, I come from a first edition background. Wizards, magic users, etc are learned, scholarly folk who have dedicated their lives to learning about magic. Rangers are dabblers, and bards, well, don't get me started. Bards shouldn't even have arcane spells, but since they do, they also fall under the dabbler mantle. They just can't make it work. Nor should a wizard be able to charm someone with a song.

Right, I know you have seemingly non-mainstream views on the Bard / Ranger, but I'm not here to fight you on those views. I'm just curious why someone as highly knowledgeable as the Bard and as magically gifted as the Bard shouldn't be able to use a magical staff that a Wizard can use. The Bard seems to fit the "scholarly folk" bit (Bardic Knowledge, usually access to all Knowledge / Lore skills, etc.), as well as the "dedicated their lives to learning about magic" bit (it's a big part of their class, and they get much more magic than most other people in the world).

As for level, level one, if he can get his hands on one, but that shouldn't be very likely to happen.

Okay. I think I'm just asking why, fictionally, this should be the case. I think that's mainly what I'm wondering about. Why, fictionally, is it okay for a level 1 Wizard to use one, but not a level 18 Bard?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Okay. I think I'm just asking why, fictionally, this should be the case. I think that's mainly what I'm wondering about. Why, fictionally, is it okay for a level 1 Wizard to use one, but not a level 18 Bard?

The same reason a level 20 carpenter can't fly a plane but a level 1 pilot can.

 

[Savage Wombat]

The same reason a level 20 carpenter can't fly a plane but a level 1 pilot can.

Carpenters don't fly planes, they shave down the edges of doors with them.

 

[JamesonCourage]

The same reason a level 20 carpenter can't fly a plane but a level 1 pilot can.

But, again, fictionally, a Bard is extremely knowledgeable, and capable of arcane magic. I'm asking what the difference is between him and the Wizard here (to you, obviously). As far as I can tell, they're both pilots.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Does it help if we only consider items in the current playtest document? Imagining how a not-yet-described item (Staff of the Magi) interacts with a proposed rule change (class groups) is unlikely to find any common ground from which a reasoned position can be argued.

 

[Tovec]

The same reason a level 20 carpenter can't fly a plane but a level 1 pilot can.

Define the skills of the first level pilot. How many of those can the carpenter pick up before he becomes a pilot, or more specifically how many can he have and NOT be a pilot officially.

JamesonCourage has no problem considering arcane knowledge, access to arcane spells, and "knowledge / lore" as defining characteristics of "mage" enough to qualify for full benefits - though not at first level. You don't and that is cool but don't try to make it so black and white like we are idiots for not coming around to your way of thinking. We understand but disagree with it, not we don't understand at all.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

But, again, fictionally, a Bard is extremely knowledgeable, and capable of arcane magic. I'm asking what the difference is between him and the Wizard here (to you, obviously). As far as I can tell, they're both pilots.

Well, ok, then, to continue the pilot analogy, if they are both pilots, the bard flies a cropduster. That doesn't mean he can fly an F15.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Define the skills of the first level pilot. How many of those can the carpenter pick up before he becomes a pilot, or more specifically how many can he have and NOT be a pilot officially.

JamesonCourage has no problem considering arcane knowledge, access to arcane spells, and "knowledge / lore" as defining characteristics of "mage" enough to qualify for full benefits - though not at first level. You don't and that is cool but don't try to make it so black and white like we are idiots for not coming around to your way of thinking. We understand but disagree with it, not we don't understand at all.

Show me where I called anyone an idiot? Nevermind, just another troll to put on ignore.