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Legends & Lore: Clas Groups

They're not incompatible, but they are both strong individual archetypes (the analogy here is multiclassing).

And now I have to learn multiclassing rules and deal with heaps of added complexity just because the designers wanted to throw up a pointless roadblock to stop storm shamans from also being pilots? FOR WHAT BENEFIT? All that rule is doing right now is making it harder for my players to play things that don't fit within the designers' preconceived and largely irrelevant notions of what "types of characters" exist at my table.
 

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And I would argue that the D&D cleric archetype is probably one of the few archetypes that mostly didn't exist pre-D&D.

I've always felt weird with the cleric class because I believe, as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] mentions, that gods should answer people's prayers if it strikes their fancy: if Athena finds that Odysseus is a Hero that advances her ideals, she'll help him directly and indirectly regardless of the fact that Odysseus is (not) one of her priests.

Not to delve into religion, but that's new testament dogma. Pre Jesus, a cleric (priest) was required as an intermediary to forward prayers. It may be Christian specific, but the archetype was there.
 

I could really get behind this. 4e started to head a bit this way in some of its later releases (assuming I've got your meaning right), but could have gone further. For instance, I think that 4e could probably have merged the STR cleric and the paladin, and the WIS cleric and the invoker, without too much loss if it was done well.

But D&Dnext seems to be based on a fairly traditional conception of what "feels like" D&D, and that seems to mean that a lot of these classes have to be distinct.

I agree, it does look that way, but does a character type being distinct necessarily mean it has its own class? This is a bit of a change of focus, but there were an awful lot of bladesingers around in AD&D2. I think they were very distinct, and they were a multiclass kit. I suspect there would be a strong lobby behind them as "feeling like" D&D, but they've never been a base class.

I worked up a list of 28 classes from D&D3, and the Pathfinder APG for flavor, (the only reason I didn't use D&D4 was volume [and, okay, what I see as redundancy {see above re: WIS clerics and invokers}]) and I found eight of them that I felt were distinct enough in themselves and from each other to be classes; the rest could easily be resolved as a subclass or feat track. I think eight is a really good number.

That will probably be another thread, though.

What is really great about this thread is that no matter what we or Wizards decide, I feel confident that I will be able to mod the D&D5 class system into whatever sort of experience I want it to be, without the need to write dozens of powers. Yay for dungeon master agency!

(Sorry for the faint criticism of D&D4; I humbly request that it not derail the thread.)

And now I have to learn multiclassing rules and deal with heaps of added complexity just because the designers wanted to throw up a pointless roadblock to stop storm shamans from also being pilots? FOR WHAT BENEFIT? All that rule is doing right now is making it harder for my players to play things that don't fit within the designers' preconceived and largely irrelevant notions of what "types of characters" exist at my table.

The designers' notions of what "types of characters" exist at your table are pretty central and relevant to the playing of a class-based roleplaying system.
 
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Not to delve into religion, but that's new testament dogma. Pre Jesus, a cleric (priest) was required as an intermediary to forward prayers. It may be Christian specific, but the archetype was there.

More to the point, in ancient myth the gods were far more likely to do bad things than good things to people who caught their eye. That's not a great basis for a class.

...What am I saying? The Pathfinder oracle is fantastic. Still, the point stands; if you're going to replace clerics with universal communion the cost-benefit ratio should be huge.

Better that the gods wait to be asked...
 

The designers' notions of what "types of characters" exist at your table are pretty central and relevant to the playing of a class-based roleplaying system.

You've got it backwards, mate. Design is the art of crafting something that is going to be useful in some way to the audience that you intend to be the consumers of your design. What matters isn't what WotC thinks should be a type of character, what matters is what I think should be a type of character, and what you think should be a type of character and what, collectively, we think should be the types of characters.

As this thread actively demonstrates, our thinking on this issue is diverse -- infinite, even. What works for the guy who wants rangers to be Rogues isn't going to work for the guy who wants rangers to be Warriors or the guy who wants Rangers to be Priests. So dictating what the class "is" and implementing that from the top down isn't going to be useful in playing the game -- it is inevitably going to be flawed. So that leads to the question, "What does this element actually do? And can whatever it does be done in other ways?"

And it doesn't look like it does anything. None of the things that Mearls has mentioned using the class group for requires something like a class group to do. It introduces unnecessary problems for no actual benefit.
 


Well, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

It's inaccurate to call this my opinion. It's the opinion of countless design professionals across genre and medium, one of the many ways they distinguish design from art. I'm merely an observer of that behavior and self-definition.

This is fundamentally true, but I do love me some categorization.

One of the beautiful things about modular design: you can always introduce another layer of categorization if you want.
 


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