Legends & Lore: What Worked, What Didn't

[Thyrwyn]

...the DC for spells is 8 + spellcasting mod (which, at 3rd level, is capped out at +3, since the highest buyable stat is 16, with a +1 race bonus, for a score of 17) + a proficiency modifier of 2. So, uh, yeah. That should be a DC of 13 on Web.

in the public playtest docs the DC is 10+spellcasting mod. . .

 

[Cybit]

in the public playtest docs the DC is 10+spellcasting mod. . .

Nope - on the 101413 Classes file, page 6 under Bard, saving throw DC is 8 + mod + prof bonus (with instrument in case of Bard).

 

[Argyle King]

You guys do realize that a DC 15 is impossible to reach at 3rd level, right?

the DC for spells is 8 + spellcasting mod (which, at 3rd level, is capped out at +3, since the highest buyable stat is 16, with a +1 race bonus, for a score of 17) + a proficiency modifier of 2. So, uh, yeah. That should be a DC of 13 on Web.

The highest rollable stat is not 16.

Even if we assume it is only possible to buy a 16, level 4 allows a stat bump. 16+1 racial+2 from level is 19. ...which is only one less than is possible to get from rolling and capping out early at 20.

edit: I was level 3 at the time, but I mentioned level 4 because the gap between 3 and 4 is not significant.

The old version of web that I used from the previous packet, and what I was talking about when I gave my example states "each creature that starts its turn within the webs or that enters the webs makes a Dexterity saving throw. The are of the webs is large enough that I covered the entire area of the lighthouse at the end of Murder At Balder's Gate; I used the war wizardy or whatever the ability was called that allowed me to pick a certain number of squares to not cover -choosing squares where my allies were. Even on a success, the enemy needed to 'enter the webs' when moving into a new space, and thus needed to make saves. Even if they somehow then also made that, they were still in the webs at the beginning of their next turn and needed to start the process over again. Even at a mere 13 (as illustrated in your post,) that's less than a 50% chance to succeed; the possibility of success (I believe) gets worse as more rolls are required.

Meanwhile, I was free to use ranged attack spells to kill them. I should also mention that I was using a pregen. Had I actually chosen spells myself, it likely would have been worse for the enemy. I'm not what I would consider a power gamer, but I'd say I'm pretty good at figuring out ways to use spells which aren't direct damage. Control and/or using spells which aren't often used is my preferred style of caster. To give a brief anecdote to illustrate what I mean, and how I feel my way of thinking when it comes to spells is different than a straight blaster, in the 3.5 game where I'm currently a player, I recently attempted to use Tree Shape, bluff, and the ability of my raven familiar to speak to defeat an encounter. (It only didn't work because I phrased something poorly and tipped off to one of the targets that I was obviously lying.)

I plan to test how things work now with the newer rules in the upcoming season.

 

[Cybit]

Ahh yes, Rolled Stats could get you an 18, but the odds of that are very rare, and not something you can count on.

Note: There is no race in the public playtest (101413 file) that gives a +2 to a casting stat. The only +2 is STR from a half-orc. So there is no race with a +2.

I'll go with point buy since a rolled 18 is low (sub 10%) chance on 4d6 choose 3. With that, at level 4, if you get your stat bump to your casting stat and pass up on feats, you could have an 18. So, per level....based on the 101413 file, and that the caster has the proper implement (and is getting prof bonus)

Level	Prof Bonus	Casting Stat	Mod	DC
1	1	17	3	12
2	1	17	3	12
3	2	17	3	13
4	2	19	4	14
5	2	19	4	14
6	2	19	4	14
7	3	19	4	15
8	3	20	5	16
9	3	20	5	16
10	3	20	5	16
11	4	20	5	17
12	4	20	5	17
13	4	20	5	17
14	4	20	5	17
15	5	20	5	18
16	5	20	5	18
17	5	20	5	18
18	5	20	5	18
19	6	20	5	19
20	6	20	5	19

Assuming the rare scenario of a naturally rolled 18 (or 17, depending on their ability score selection)

Level	Prof Bonus	Casting Stat	Mod	DC
1	1	19	4	13
2	1	19	4	13
3	2	19	4	14
4	2	20	5	15
5	2	20	5	15
6	2	20	5	15
7	3	20	5	16
8	3	20	5	16
9	3	20	5	16
10	3	20	5	16
11	4	20	5	17
12	4	20	5	17
13	4	20	5	17
14	4	20	5	17
15	5	20	5	18
16	5	20	5	18
17	5	20	5	18
18	5	20	5	18
19	6	20	5	19
20	6	20	5	19

 

[Argyle King]

Which even at a 13 still supports what I was saying above.

 

[Cybit]

Which even at a 13 still supports what I was saying above.

Not quite...

at DC 13, the breakdown is more (assuming a +0 DEX mod, which, is really generous in terms of the targets) as well as a +0 STR mod. In all honesty, that means the creature's probably a caster, and doesn't really give a crap about web (as spells are often unaffected by restrained). But, assuming no caster in the situation.

40% chance on 1st round
64% chance on 2nd round (would need to attempt a STR check here)
78% chance on 3rd round.

Mind you, this assumes there is a "single" target, with +0 Dex mod, and no ability to attacked with a ranged weapon. Also, the spell requires concentration, which has certain limitations.

So in a combat where there is a group of players versus a single level equivalent monster, who has no dex modifier (or str modifier, as they can also try to just break out w/ a Strength check), and no ranged attack capability, or alternate means of movement, a 2nd level spell can indeed be a problem. Add in multiple monsters, the odds of all of them getting hit drop, and a single creature with a torch or fire damage capability makes the spell useless.

Alternatively, I can just mention that the updated rules (not sure how far along they will update the rules) in the next season may put ease to your concerns.

For those worried about the spell balance, I would humbly suggest waiting till the next revision of the rules come out.

 

[GX.Sigma]

"each creature that starts its turn within the webs or that enters the webs makes a Dexterity saving throw. The are of the webs is large enough that I covered the entire area of the lighthouse at the end of Murder At Balder's Gate; I used the war wizardy or whatever the ability was called that allowed me to pick a certain number of squares to not cover -choosing squares where my allies were. Even on a success, the enemy needed to 'enter the webs' when moving into a new space, and thus needed to make saves. Even if they somehow then also made that, they were still in the webs at the beginning of their next turn and needed to start the process over again.

I think there were some problems with DM interpretation there. First of all, that Mage feature only applies to evocation spells, and Web is a conjuration. Also, I think the intention on Web is that a creature only needs to save once per round--I don't think it counts as "entering the webs" when you move within the webs.

That said, I agree that Web is a totally broken encounter-ender and needs to be fixed.

 

[Argyle King]

Out of curiosity, I got up and went through my pack to see if I could find the old character. Now that I have it in front of me, I can more accurately put some numbers to the scenario. My save DCs with the pregen started at 11/12 (depending on if I had a focus.) So, Cybit is right in saying the DCs were 13; after leveling up the prefen, my numbers were 12/13.

The actual word for word description of Web is essentially what I said above.

I did make a mistake with Web not benefiting from the evocation ability. However, I do not feel that would have significantly altered things. Most of my allies were focused on ranged attacks with a high dex and no reason to move through the webs anyway.

As for whether the DM interpreted the spell wrong? Possibly, but his interpretation (which even I as the player of the wizard felt was far too good) doesn't seem to contradict how the spell's effect is expressed. Perhaps the wording of the spell could be made clearer if that is not the intent.

As I sit here now, this is the first time I've actually read the Murder In Balder's Gate adventure, so I'm taking educated guesses at what the creatures faced in the final battle were. We were fighting in a lighthouse; there was a person empowered by an evil god (Bale maybe?) and some soldiers under his command. Between the thug, tough thug, watch soldier, and watch sergeant, the best Dex bonus is a +1; +0 is common. The best Str bonus is +2, which is better, but using that option of getting out of web requires taking an action, and then still again being on the webs at the start of your next turn and getting stuck again. I don't remember who the person in charge of the enemies was, but I'm going to say it was likely one of the people with the higher Dex bonus, so, in that case, I can only assume the DM was rolling poorly. The DM is usually at the opposite end of the table from where I sit, so I cannot always clearly see what he's rolling.

 

[Cybit]

Out of curiosity, I got up and went through my pack to see if I could find the old character. Now that I have it in front of me, I can more accurately put some numbers to the scenario. My save DCs with the pregen started at 11/12 (depending on if I had a focus.) So, Cybit is right in saying the DCs were 13; after leveling up the prefen, my numbers were 12/13.

The actual word for word description of Web is essentially what I said above.

I did make a mistake with Web not benefiting from the evocation ability. However, I do not feel that would have significantly altered things. Most of my allies were focused on ranged attacks with a high dex and no reason to move through the webs anyway.

As for whether the DM interpreted the spell wrong? Possibly, but his interpretation (which even I as the player of the wizard felt was far too good) doesn't seem to contradict how the spell's effect is expressed. Perhaps the wording of the spell could be made clearer if that is not the intent.

As I sit here now, this is the first time I've actually read the Murder In Balder's Gate adventure, so I'm taking educated guesses at what the creatures faced in the final battle were. We were fighting in a lighthouse; there was a person empowered by an evil god (Bale maybe?) and some soldiers under his command. Between the thug, tough thug, watch soldier, and watch sergeant, the best Dex bonus is a +1; +0 is common. The best Str bonus is +2, which is better, but using that option of getting out of web requires taking an action, and then still again being on the webs at the start of your next turn and getting stuck again. I don't remember who the person in charge of the enemies was, but I'm going to say it was likely one of the people with the higher Dex bonus, so, in that case, I can only assume the DM was rolling poorly. The DM is usually at the opposite end of the table from where I sit, so I cannot always clearly see what he's rolling.

Ahhhh MiBG, ok, that makes sense then.

Yeah - check out the latest season and I think you'll see some pretty good changes with regards to spells in that sense. Assuming they've updated the rules at least somewhat.

As for Web, I'll pass along the idea that someone only needs to make a save against Web once in order to move through the webs from inside the webs. I can see someone outside entering the webs as requiring a save, but once you've made the save inside the web, it makes sense you don't have to make up to two saves / turn to move through the web.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

You guys do realize that a DC 15 is impossible to reach at 3rd level, right?

the DC for spells is 8 + spellcasting mod (which, at 3rd level, is capped out at +3, since the highest buyable stat is 16, with a +1 race bonus, for a score of 17) + a proficiency modifier of 2. So, uh, yeah. That should be a DC of 13 on Web.

You can also roll for your stats. Stat buy is only one option.