Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wil, since you're here-- I finally picked up my copy of Midnight.

It is fantastic work. Expect a vote come ENnie time. And I'm just talking about the crunch-- I haven't even had time to absorb the fluff.

The original poster could not possibly do better than Midnight to instantly capture everything he's asking for.


Wulf

 

[Ace]

Bonus feats, extra skill points (+2 to all classes alotment) 40 point buy and a level based defense bonus go a long way to diminishing the need for magic items

If you got this route and reduce certain combos (fly/ivis/fireball -- scry/buff/teleport) and monster types the system will balance out ok with less magic

I alos suggest using "scaled" magic items that go up with the user to reduce the "magic item switchout" effect

 

[Umbran]

Take away a character's magical toys, and he is suddenly the lesser for it. He can no longer battle dragons or take on armies with confidence because all of his power is tied to his stuff rather than to him.

Okay, so you switch the power from the item to the character. So what? The power is still there, and still common, and therefore not particularly mysterious or impressive. How is shifting where the power lies a gain?

Really, if there's a system for it, then the fighter next door could go and get the same power-ups just as easily as you can. It's still not special. And, the way the game is currently written, in order to take on the same challenge, a character needs the powers of magic, whether they are in the body or in the item is mostly irrelevant.

There's a bit of a flaw in what you say - the characters can still take on armies and dragons without magic items - they are just lesser dragons, and smaller armies of lower level warriors. The problem isn't with the magic items, but with how they are worked into the CR system - in that their effect isn't modular. You cannot easily calculate what a new critter's CR should be for a low magic world...

So, don't write me a book on how to give PCs new powers. I already have magic items to give them powers. You're offering me somethign for which I already have an analog. I'd be far more interested in a book that gives me something I don't have, and cannot produce with a single GM's resources - a book detailing the CRs of MM critters in the perspective of a low-magic campaign would be a new and useful thing.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Wil, since you're here-- I finally picked up my copy of Midnight.

It is fantastic work. Expect a vote come ENnie time. And I'm just talking about the crunch-- I haven't even had time to absorb the fluff.

The original poster could not possibly do better than Midnight to instantly capture everything he's asking for.


Wulf

Thanks Wulf, I think you'll be even more hooked once you read Jeff's excellent background materials.

**And just to clarify, I was by no means saying that the poster shouldn't work on his own stuff, or that Midnight did it better, just suggesting he have a look since the setting seems to be compatible with everything he wants and he might be able to glean some ideas since we've already thought this stuff through quite a bit.

 

[s/LaSH]

Monster balance issues notwithstanding, here's a new perspective on things:

You pay XP to get levels.

In effect, it's true. Once you've leveled, you can never get that XP back.

Now take that idea and turn it backwards. Things that cost XP can just as easily be converted into levels - Magic Sword isn't really a good name for a class, but you get the idea.

Sadly, D&D is too granular for this to work without a heck of a lot of analysis and rebalance work. However, when I created my Twilight system I did fully integrate item powers with character powers - about the only difference is that an item weighs something and can be temporarily removed. An item is built just like a character - point buy skills. I've defined a way to tie items directly into character creation/XP accumulation, which really does turn equipment (of all kinds) into part of the character. Handily, this approach also makes polymorphing easily definable and puts strict limits on those powers. None of these rules are in the online version, but there are hints as to what I've done if anyone thinks it might be useful.

 

[cptg1481]

I love the creativity of your idea and fully support your right to

play the game as you wish.

However, IMO if you are simply going to replace the role of magic

items with some other system of acquiring increased chances

(through probability generation) of successfullyachieving the

goals of your characters you haven't really changed the game

mechanic but rather its flavor only. Be sure that's what you're

after. Granted, flavor can make all the difference in settings.

I like magic items because like someone else said, they can be

taken away lost, broken (all part of game balance) etc., switch

their role with that of some innate character abilities and that very

balance is in jeopardy.

 

[Sulimo]

Re: Re: Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

So, don't write me a book on how to give PCs new powers. I already have magic items to give them powers. You're offering me somethign for which I already have an analog. I'd be far more interested in a book that gives me something I don't have, and cannot produce with a single GM's resources - a book detailing the CRs of MM critters in the perspective of a low-magic campaign would be a new and useful thing.

Yeah. I'd LOVE to see a reworked CR system for low or rare magic settings.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Re: Re: Re: Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

Yeah. I'd LOVE to see a reworked CR system for low or rare magic settings.

We have one in Midnight, although it is specifically geared toward Midnight, but I think it would be a good start for any low or rare magic world.

 

[Sulimo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

We have one in Midnight, although it is specifically geared toward Midnight, but I think it would be a good start for any low or rare magic world.

Cool. I'm anxiously awaiting my copy of Midnight. Hopefully I'll have it soon.

 

[hong]

Thats the point of the magic item. They are there (in stories and myth and legend) to beg the question "Is it the hero or is it his machine?" You will notice when a hero in a story uses a machine (or device or weapon) to achieve his goal the item that allowed him that achievement is ussually eventually separated from him, or takes a big step into the background. This is done to preserve the hero as a hero. If the hero is not removed from the device, then he becomes a villan, for the hero is a slave to the tool and by definition that is not a hero. He is no longer "ex pyrosis." We see this with Gollum, Aragorn, Sauron, Elric, Beowulf, Ulysses, and Plato's Gyges.

Rot.

This idea combines the hero with his tool and smacks of the transhuman philosophy: That it is better to be one with the tool than to maintain the ability to separate from it. The magic item should not be seen as an enhancement to the character. It never was, never is and should never be.

Rot part II, the Revenge.

The idea that certain enemies can only be defeated by certain powers of magic weapon is a trait of the quest. The characters find out that thier foe is unbeatable except by one kind of weapon and then quest to find that weapon.

Rot part III, Army of Putrefaction.