Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

[Snoweel]

I take it you disagree vehemently, hong?

 

[Umbran]

Sadly, D&D is too granular for this to work without a heck of a lot of analysis and rebalance work.

Granularity is not the only issue. There's also the issue of synergy. There's lots and lots of it in D&D - the value of one ability strongly depends on what abilities you already have, making assignment of static point costs difficult to balance.

As a plain for instance - Let's say the ability in question is access to a Fighter's martial bonus feats. This is much more valuable in the hands of someone who has a fighter's BAB than it is to a person with a Wizarad's BAB. So, how many points is the acess to the feats worth?

 

[e3_Jeb]

Most everyone here is making very good arguments for or against the excessive use of magic in a campaign (I particularly liked Jester47’s even though I kinda disagree with it).

But it seems that everyone here is assuming that the PCs are completely inept without their magic items. I’m currently playing in a low magic game where our average party lvl is 7/8ish and we have an average net worth of about 2,000 gp. This is far from where we should be in the DMG yet we’re still fighting opponents of the suggested CR (all be it that after every battle two men are down and the other two have maybe a combined 20 hp). Every magic item is a very important addition to the group and that is reflected in how we fight (e.g. The fighter who can’t get past the DR heals people with the wand and bullrushes enemies off of the roof, as does the barbarian, the one fighter who has the magical sword fights off the lycanthropes, and the druid uses everything in his arsenal to beat them back.). This way everyone’s a piece of the fighting machine as opposed to four tanks that can decimate everything in their path.

I guess this is just something only some people enjoy. It adds a sense of heroism that I isn't always there.

 

[Michael Tree]

But it seems that everyone here is assuming that the PCs are completely inept without their magic items.

I don't think anyone here is assuming that. However, they are significantly less powerful than the standard, and opponents that should be fairly easy to defeat become much more difficult. In the very example you described, the opponents of the "suggested CR" are much more difficult for you to defeat than the standard 1/4 of resources. To your characters, they're a much higher CR than is listed in the book, and as you gain more and more levels, the disparity will become even more extreme. Worse yet, you'll be rewarded less and less XP, as your GM will be forced to put you against opponents of lower CRs than your level, until you're no longer gaining XP for opponents that are challenging for you.

I understand that the tactics your party uses are interesting and fun, and I agree. However, what will happen when more and more of your opponents have DR (vs. the fighters) and high saving throws (vs. the spellcasters). Will the player of your fighter be happy with always being a pseudo-cleric? Will the barbarian player be happy when he's useless in all combats unless for bullrushes? Both sound dreadfully boring to me.

 

[Apok]

However, IMO if you are simply going to replace the role of magic

items with some other system of acquiring increased chances

(through probability generation) of successfullyachieving the

goals of your characters you haven't really changed the game

mechanic but rather its flavor only. Be sure that's what you're

after. Granted, flavor can make all the difference in settings.

Woah, lotta responses and a great many interesting points of view. Good stuff, guys. Okay, I'm gonna respond to this one because, IMO, it's the most relevant.

Yes, this is precisely the reason I am making this change and I completely agree with your philosophy regarding a game's flavor. Not only to change the flavor, per se, but the entire feel as well by giving the players a little more control over how they want to develop their character.

In other words, if someone really wants a guy who can pull off Matrix-style dodges and fly around like Neo without the aid of magic, it's in there. If they want to be able to summon their weapons out of thin air from an extra-dimensional space, they can do that too. If they want to be able to run up walls and along ceilings and jump over 100' straight up from a standing position, it can be done. If they wan't their character to unleash a melee attack so fast it leaves an afterimage and light contrails, great.

Can you accomplish all these things right now, with the proper use of spells and magic gear? Yes, but to me that's boring. I'd much rather the character's have the ability within themselves where it can't be stolen or taken away. This way, I can save the really awesome, earth-shattering power for the artifacts.

I will be taking certain balance issues into account, but I'm not going to be mathematically hyper-precise or even terribly worried about balance, because I'm looking for a more out-there feel. Something thats a little less pseudo-medieval fantasy and more anime. Yeah, I could probably run BESM and get a similiar feel, but I don't care for the Tri-Stat system and half the fun is the raw process of creation. Rules tinkering is something of a hobby of mine.

Oh, btw, I have no intention of doing this as a full-fledged published work. This is purely for my own use and amusement, which I will gladly share (once it's at least somewhat complete) with those who are interested. I will also most likely be picking up Midnight because I am an FFG product-whore, but that's a whole other issue.

 

[e3_Jeb]

Will the barbarian player be happy when he's useless in all combats unless for bullrushes? Both sound dreadfully boring to me.

Coincidentally, our characters are beginning to follow something that is similar to what Apok is suggesting. The Barbarian you speak of recently became aflicted with Lycanthropy and is choosing to learn to control it as opposed to having it cured (like the rest of us). Our Druid is taking the path of pure coolness factor as well (Animal companion 50+ crows), our Commander took levels of Paladin and found an inner strength he never knew was there, and I, the Aristocrat fighter, I enjoy the challenge of not being able reduce all enemies to paste with the sweep of a blade.

But this is all simply a matter of what you're looking for in your game. I hope you all can find your nitch in RPGs as well as I've found mine.

 

[ced1106]

I love the idea of magic weapons and items, don't get me wrong, but I think that they should all be unique, named with a rich history. They should also be powerful, perhaps with some drawbacks attatched to them.

I think you can do this yet still have D&D's "common magic" setting.

Potions, some miscellaneous magic, and +1 stuff are "common magic", so don't have any backstory.

Everything else gets the Index Card of Doom. As the GM, you write down three things about each "powerful" magic item to make it unique:
* Something good
* Something not-so-good
* Something of flavor

And, of course, don't tell a thing about it to the players!

In effect, the item becomes less of a stat bonus than something of an NPC. Why is the magic item here? How did it get here? Who created it? Does someone lay claim it? Does the magic item have a purpose or quest? Does it still need to be fulfilled?

More importantly: How can I make this item a plot hook into my next adventure? How do I use it to cause the PCs to never pick up a foreign magic item again?


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[RangerWickett]

I REALLY like this concept.

If someone puts such a system together, BY ALL MEANS, e-mail me. I would be very tempted to give it a shot IMC.

Four-Color to Fantasy, published by Natural 20 Press (now E.N. Publishing), focuses on adding super powers and a myriad of minor special abilities to any D20 game. The primary method of gaining these powers is through taking the Hero class, which just grants super powers; it's similar to a racial class or a level adjustment.

However, we do have an alternative option for if you want to have your character gain special powers rather than have magic items. This is intended to replace the numerous 'utility' items you see in so many games. I'm sure no one is arguing that having famous magical swords is bad, or that it's not cool to find a magic item like a carpet of flying or a apparatus of kwalish. However, it's the numerical items, the Belts of Strength, Bracers of Armor, and Cloaks of Protection that get on the nerves.

These are not magical items of great mystery and majesty; they're power-ups, and as such are rather boring. Why do so many simple power-ups exist, and why should you feel obligated to give out these power-ups just so that the PCs have proper ACs and attack bonuses?

There is an optional system presented in FCTF that guestimates what level of super powers is equivalent to a given GP amount of magic items. With this system, you can hand out all the cool, legendary items and exotic, nifty items you want, without having to keep track of how many random AC, Attack, and save bonuses each PC and NPC has.

In the revised version, coming out soon to be compatible with d20 Modern as well as D&D, we're going to include a template of what would be a standard set of powers to replace your magic items with. This also would cut down on the need of giving NPC villains and henchmen tons of minor magic items that PCs will eventually have too much of. Instead, all NPCs could just have minor powers appropriate to their level.

Alternately, if you want to pass on standard statistical bonuses, you can get cool powers, like the above-mentioned wall-running, high-jumping, or kamehameha energy blasting. I personally think it's much cooler to have a high-level monk who can fire classic ki blasts, or to have a cleric with actual angelic wings and a holy aura, rather than having a few cloaks of protection and an amulet of natural armor.

 

[RangerWickett]

One word: 4CTF.

Okay, so it's really four words . . . so sue me. It's a great way of making things more character-oriented, instead of object-oriented, while maintaining the same power level. Just outlaw the Gadget option, and bingo!

Of course, it's also totally broken, but as an avid lover of Feng Shui, who am I to complain about such tribial matters?

Just wondering, Jeph, since we're about to release the revised version and we'd like it to be as bug-free as possible, what do you think is broken about it?

Oh, and yeah, I forgot. You can use the rules to play superheroes too!

 

[Apok]

Alternately, if you want to pass on standard statistical bonuses, you can get cool powers, like the above-mentioned wall-running, high-jumping, or kamehameha energy blasting. I personally think it's much cooler to have a high-level monk who can fire classic ki blasts, or to have a cleric with actual angelic wings and a holy aura, rather than having a few cloaks of protection and an amulet of natural armor.

Hmmm... the more you describe it, the more 4CTF seems to pique my interest. You say there is a revised version coming out soon? I may have to pick that one up, as it sounds very interesting.