Lesser transformation spell...

[kreynolds]

The 4th-level spell divine power gives you a base attack bonus equal to your character level, a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and 1 temporary hit point per caster level. If you remove the enhancement bonus to Strength and the temporary hit points, would that bring it down to a 3rd-level cleric spell?

What about an arcane version that grants nothing but the increased base attack bonus? Basically a much lesser version of Tenser's transformation? Divine power is a 4th-level spell and Tenser's is a 6th-level spell. Would a 4th-level spell be too high or low a level to make your base attack bonus to your character level? How about a 3rd-level or 4th-level spell that makes your BAB equal to your _caster_ level?

What do you folks think?

 

[rkanodia]

I'm not sure about the arcane side of things, but Divine Favor has a similar effect to what you're describing, and it's first level. You don't get base attack bonus, but you do get a bonus to damage. I guess the problem is, around levels 3-5, Divine Favor seems pretty weak, but from 6 onward I think it's pretty solid for a first-level spell. Also, the duration is fixed at one minute, but hey, until level 10, that's better than Divine Power. I think I might consider the spell you're describing underpowered at third level.

 

[FrankTrollman]

How about a 3rd-level or 4th-level spell that makes your BAB equal to your _caster_ level?

OK, that's exactly the same as that part of Tenser's Transformation. Actually, it's worse because you can still transfer the spell to friends with spell storage devices and with a caster level based BAB characters could end up with a BAB much higher than their level. For that matter, it is relatively trivial to get an Orange Ioun Stone and achieve a BAB of +21 at pre-epic levels. That's a big no-no as well.

Regardless - why should there be such a spell?

Wizards already fly, shoot lightning bolts, unlock doors, unravel ancient curses, and turn people into frogs much better than Fighters hit things. Why should Wizards be able to swing a sword as well as a Fighter?

The Fighter is already underpowered and overshadowed by Clerics who abuse this sort of thing - why should he have to play second fiddle to a Wizard as well?

-Frank

 

[kreynolds]

OK, that's exactly the same as that part of Tenser's Transformation.

No. Tenser's Transformation is character level.

 

[FrankTrollman]

And caster level is almost always as high or higher than character level - why would that be a lower level spell?

-Frank

 

[kreynolds]

And caster level is almost always as high or higher than character level

Not in my experience, but its a moot point anyway. There's a big difference between caster level and character level, namely the latter including all your class levels, no matter where they come from.

why would that be a lower level spell?

The former only considers your spellcasting class level, thus it is less versatile than a spell that considers all of your class levels. The question becomes whether or not that versatility really has any impact on low level spells. Personally, for a 3rd-level spell, I don't think it makes much of an impact at all. For a 4th-level spell, I think it certainly does.

 

[FrankTrollman]

3.5 rules ensure that there are items and class features that can raise your caster level by a lot. While such a spell would be useless at best to a multiclassed Wizard/Fighter (mysteriously enough) - it would allow an Archmage with an Orange Ioun Stone to get more iterative attacks than a Fighter of his level.

That's totally unacceptable, and in no way a good game mechanic. It is entirely possible for a character to raise their caster level by 11 levels using only material from the 3.5 DMG and without using any item more than once. I don't know why you have latched onto this as a good idea - it's not. It is a an interesting concept but on further reflection it is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

I think it would make a good fourth level arcane spell spell.

 

[kreynolds]

It is entirely possible for a character to raise their caster level by 11 levels using only material from the 3.5 DMG and without using any item more than once.

I don't have any powergames in my group, so "abuse" of the system is not a factor that I need to take into consideration.

It is a an interesting concept but on further reflection it is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.

Then I should expect no further input from you. Fair enough.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I don't have any powergames in my group, so "abuse" of the system is not a factor that I need to take into consideration.

That's not abuse. People are supposed to increase their caster levels beyond their character level as primary spellcasters.

In any case - this is essentially the 3rd edition Tenser's Transformation you are talking about. Only it gave out half your caster level as bonus BAB - idea was that it raised just the Wizard levels to a Fighter BAB and allowed your Fighter levels to stack normally.

But the 3rd edition Tenser's Transformation was pulled because of:

1> Spellstoring Items
2> Caster Level increases
3> Epic Considerations

Your idea is to have it replace BAB, but rise at the rate of 1/1 per caster level instead of 1/2. That doesn't make it any larger base - but it leaves all three mechanical problems intact and makes them grow twice as fast. That's why that idea isn't good - it is simply undoing one of the few extremely good changes of 3.5.

If you want this spell effect to be broken - just use the 3rd edition version. Don't write a whole new spell that has all the same mechanical problems and expect people to like it.

-Frank