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Blog (A5E) Let’s Look At Combat Maneuvers

One of our goals with Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition was to create a more tactical combat system. But it was very important to us that we not create a more difficult combat system. Which is why our combat maneuvers are a buffet of over 150 bite-sized options, not unlike spells. Combat maneuvers are nonmagical.


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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

Faolyn

Hero
Approve!

Are the maneuvers going to be in alphabetical order, with a listing of tradition/degree before hand, like the way spells are organized alphabetically but have a listing by class/level before hand?

You have maneuvers like Death Blow (3 points, 3 attacks). Does this mean that you have to (successfully?) attack a creature three times, and the Death Blow kicks in on the third time? Or does it mean that you can't use this unless you have three attacks in a turn? Or do you have to "spend" three attacks but only deliver one attack, the death blow, or something else altogether?

Bloody Roar says: "Any hostile creature within a 30 feet cube centered on you suffers psychic damage equal to your expertise die plus your proficiency modifier and becomes frightened until the end of their next turn." First, this sounds neat! But expertise die in what?
 

Rabulias

Adventurer
Looking forward to these! :)

I assume Armor Lock should say it costs "2 attacks" not "2 actions" right?

If not, you need to explain what can be done in between the actions to notice this maneuver being done, and how to possibly thwart it before it is completed.
 

Mike Myler

www.epic5e.com/ KS ends April 22nd!
Approve!

Are the maneuvers going to be in alphabetical order, with a listing of tradition/degree before hand, like the way spells are organized alphabetically but have a listing by class/level before hand?

You have maneuvers like Death Blow (3 points, 3 attacks). Does this mean that you have to (successfully?) attack a creature three times, and the Death Blow kicks in on the third time? Or does it mean that you can't use this unless you have three attacks in a turn? Or do you have to "spend" three attacks but only deliver one attack, the death blow, or something else altogether?

Bloody Roar says: "Any hostile creature within a 30 feet cube centered on you suffers psychic damage equal to your expertise die plus your proficiency modifier and becomes frightened until the end of their next turn." First, this sounds neat! But expertise die in what?
There have been a lot of changes, but the basics for how techniques and stances (and combat traditions) work are in the fighter playtest document :) Playtest Document #2: Fighter — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
 


Stalker0

Legend
So unless the rules for maneuvers have changed and charge no longer requires an action....it is just as useless as when we gave feedback on in in the initial run :(
 

Mike Myler

www.epic5e.com/ KS ends April 22nd!
So unless the rules for maneuvers have changed and charge no longer requires an action....it is just as useless as when we gave feedback on in in the initial run :(
Talkin' bout this guy:
Charge (1 point) Action—Move up to 30 feet in a straight line and make a melee weapon attack. You can’t take the Dash action this turn.
Looked around in the 5E ruleset and could not find any ruling for moving 30 feet and making an attack as an action (or moving 60 feet and attacking on your turn without using a bonus action).

There's rules for movement (usually 30 feet a turn, unless you Dash), and then there's rules for attacking (an action), but nothing for charging as an action (moving 30 feet and attacking, which above is an action that has nothing to do with movement on your turn other than explicitly stopping any use of Dash).

Edit: I think you may be inserting a "when" into the maneuver. It doesn't say "when you move up to 30 feet in a straight line you make a melee weapon attack". It says "<do this> and <also this>."
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
We might (no promises) put the full list out for playtest once the classes are all released. Just trying to work out the best format for that with a list of 150+ maneuvers of various levels.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
So unless the rules for maneuvers have changed and charge no longer requires an action....it is just as useless as when we gave feedback on in in the initial run :(
It's a low-level 1-point maneuver. You can move, and charge, and use a bonus action (which might be another combat maneuver, such as Catch Your Breath, or Shield Wall which we previewed, one of many other bonus action maneuvers).
 

RSIxidor

Adventurer
Rearing Menace - are the chosen creatures frightened of you, your mount, or both? If you dismount while this is active, do they remain frightened of you/horse/both? I realize this is a bit of a corner case as it's only for a turn (outside of possible abilities that extend effects of maneuvers) but it struck me as curious.

Still, all this seems very fun.

Charge actually seems fine to me. It's a better version of the Charger feat since it doesn't take your bonus action (unless your speed is more than 30', in which case it's arguable that the feat is better if you often need to clear long distances, or really want the bonus or the shove, or the 30' vs 10' requirement feels too restraining). Another way to look at it that it is a weak Dash with a weapon attack that doesn't take your bonus action.

Charge Maneuver - Movement (in whatever direction) + 30' in straight line + attack and you can still take a bonus action
Charger Feat - Movement x2 (in whatever direction) + attack/shove (if you move 10'+ in a straight line before making the attack/shove, +5 to attack, 10 foot shove) - no actions of any kind remaining.

I still think both are weak compared to some things in the game, but as a low level maneuver, I'm not too upset about it. Some people will love it. Probably my only wish is that it would allow bonus actions that only work after the attack action is taken, eg Adept's/Monk's bonus attack and flurry of blows.
 



Faolyn

Hero
I think that's actually an old reference and the current draft just says 1d4. Or proficiency bonus. I'd have to check.
It's in the new blog post, under Bloody Roar. So it could still just be an old ref that didn't get edited out.

Any hostile creature within a 30 feet cube centered on you suffers psychic damage equal to your expertise die plus your proficiency modifier
 

Stalker0

Legend
Talkin' bout this guy:

Looked around in the 5E ruleset and could not find any ruling for moving 30 feet and making an attack as an action (or moving 60 feet and attacking on your turn without using a bonus action).

There's rules for movement (usually 30 feet a turn, unless you Dash), and then there's rules for attacking (an action), but nothing for charging as an action (moving 30 feet and attacking, which above is an action that has nothing to do with movement on your turn other than explicitly stopping any use of Dash).

Edit: I think you may be inserting a "when" into the maneuver. It doesn't say "when you move up to 30 feet in a straight line you make a melee weapon attack". It says "<do this> and <also this>."
The relevant clauses are:

Breaking Up Your Move

You can break up your Movement on Your Turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.

Moving between Attacks

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon Attack, you can break up your Movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a Fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an Attack, move 15 feet, and then Attack again.


So movement in 5e is very fluid. You can for example with multi-attack:

1) Move 15 feet, attack, move 15 feet, and attack again.
2) Move 30 feet and attack twice.

So in reality, your maneuver provides no benefit (its actually weaker than standard rules), but now requiring a resource expenditure. That's why it got my worse rating in my nitty gritty review.

Now if you allow dash, than its fine, as you can move 60 ft and get an attack in, which is something a fighter can not do currently.
 

Mike Myler

www.epic5e.com/ KS ends April 22nd!
The relevant clauses are:

Breaking Up Your Move

You can break up your Movement on Your Turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.

Moving between Attacks

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon Attack, you can break up your Movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a Fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an Attack, move 15 feet, and then Attack again.


So movement in 5e is very fluid. You can for example with multi-attack:

1) Move 15 feet, attack, move 15 feet, and attack again.
2) Move 30 feet and attack twice.

So in reality, your maneuver provides no benefit (its actually weaker than standard rules), but now requiring a resource expenditure. That's why it got my worse rating in my nitty gritty review.

Now if you allow dash, than its fine, as you can move 60 ft and get an attack in, which is something a fighter can not do currently.
The word 'speed' isn't there because the maneuver has nothing to do with your movement before or after using it, aside from what it explicitly forbids (using the Dash action).
 

Stalker0

Legend
The word 'speed' isn't there because the maneuver has nothing to do with your movement before or after using it, aside from what it explicitly forbids (using the Dash action).
I got you, so I could technically move 30 ft (activate charge to move 30 more feet and then get an attack). In that case its perfectly fine.
 

Mike Myler

www.epic5e.com/ KS ends April 22nd!
I got you, so I could technically move 30 ft (activate charge to move 30 more feet and then get an attack). In that case its perfectly fine.
I would like to narrow down where the disconnect is. Can you identify what in the wording (or what the wording lacked) led you to interpret it as using your movement for the turn?

Ex: Does it need something to the effect of "This maneuver moves you 30 feet in a straight line..."? Extra clause on "You cannot take the Dash action this turn, but this otherwise does not effect your movement for the turn." or similar?
 
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Faolyn

Hero
I would like to narrow down where the disconnect is. Can you identify what in the wording (or what the wording lacked) led you to interpret it as using your movement for the turn?

Ex: Does it need something to the effect of "This maneuver moves you 30 feet in a straight line..."? Extra clause on "You cannot take the Dash action this turn, but this otherwise does not effect your movement for the turn." or similar?
Not speaking for Stalker0, but I would add the sentence: "You still can use your normal movement before or after using this maneuver, but you can't take the Dash action this turn."
 


Stalker0

Legend
I would like to narrow down where the disconnect is. Can you identify what in the wording (or what the wording lacked) led you to interpret it as using your movement for the turn?

Ex: Does it need something to the effect of "This maneuver moves you 30 feet in a straight line..."? Extra clause on "You cannot take the Dash action this turn, but this otherwise does not effect your movement for the turn." or similar?
Maybe something like "You move up to 30 feet in a straight line, which does not consume your movement". This also would concretely allow for a character with less than 30 speed to also move that 30 feet on the charge (assuming that is the intention).
 

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