D&D 5E Let 'em live or die?

[Guest 6801328]

Yeah, the DM bailing out a player from the consequences of their own decisions can often feel worse than the consequences themselves.

Agreed. AND those consequences don't have to be death. Choosing between leaving the character dead and going home with your loot, and doing something dangerous (like a rescue mission) is also a consequence.

 

[iserith]

That really depends on how much the PCs knew.

Like, break this down. There were 13 xvarts (CR 1/8 @ 25 XP), 1 xvart warlock (CR 1 @ 200 XP) and 1 giant tick (assuming it's like a giant wasp, CR 1/2 @ 100 XP). 25 * 13 + 200 + 100 = 625 XP. Since there's 15 creatures, that's a x4 multiplier: 625 * 4 = 2,500 XP.

The group is 5 level 2 PCs. The deadly threshold for that is 1,000 XP. The daily budget for 5 level 2 PCs is 3,000 XP. This is way beyond deadly. This one encounter is 5/6 of the entire adventuring day's budget. It is 5 medium encounters worth of difficulty in one encounter. What exactly did the DM do to communicate exactly how $%&#@ the PCs were?

Yes, telegraphing difficulty and danger is important. It's good practice to impart that information so the players can make informed decisions. Even so, upon laying eyes on this group of monsters, if the players did absolutely nothing to assess the threat further or take some other tact than fighting to the death (and I believe we're really talking about one dead PC here), then that's on them.

 

[iserith]

Agreed. AND those consequences don't have to be death. Choosing between leaving the character dead and going home with your loot, and doing something dangerous (like a rescue mission) is also a consequence.

Right. If anything, it sounds like they got off light.

 

[Helldritch]

That is why I've always been cautious (if not downright hostile) against long back story for 1st level characters. Anything more than a paragraph make me raise an interogative, suspicious and cautious eyebrow.

Background should come trough playing the character, not from a story written. Most of the time, the actions and feats accomplished in these "background " stories could not have been achieved by a single level character (and sometimes, even a high level characters would have been hard pressed to do the same).

With all that work, and I have seen some 4 to 5 pages long back stories... killing a character becomes a lot more troublesome than it should be. It is hard to kill a character when the player invested so much in a background story...

These stories, especially extravagant ones, also break the "realism and believability " of the character. You killed ten ogres in your backstory? Why should you die to 8 goblins... No true background should come through play and not stories made up.

So again, with so much work done with background stories, it is not hard to understand that killing a character can bring a lot of cringe from the player(s). I much prefer to make it clear that character can and will die if not played cautiously. So far, never met a player that did not like my games and my DMing in that regard. The feats they do are their own. I did not fudge for them and it was not a simple story. They achieve reknown on their own merits. I believe that it is worth a million times any background story ever written as they did it.

 

[embee]

Duke Wossname got you raised form the dead. He wants you to clear out the Lost Mine of Phandelver so he can take possession of it and kick off mining again. You get to keep all the loot you find, and he takes all future proceeds from the mine, and you're square with the Duke.

And, returning to backstories - if you have a backstory, that likely includes a list of people or events that might make interesting connections for such things. So, yes, if you have the backstory, you are more apt to live!

At 2nd level, you've killed some goblins. You're still replaceable. The Duke can just find another adventurer.

As to backstories, you have siblings. Roll one up. They're going to avenge your death.

 

[pming]

While DMing today, a PC died today, 2nd level on the cusp of 3rd. It was partially good DM rolls, partially poor planning. The battle:

Spoiler

The PCs attacked a xvart lair then left to take a 1 hour short rest. Xvarts aren't stupid, and they regrouped the bulk of their forces in a central war room while directing a force to trail the PCs and block any escape. Rather than infiltrating the lair and taking it room-by-room, 5 2nd level PCs faced a very deadly encounter of 13 alert xvarts, 1 xvart warlock, and 1 giant tick. Given the PCs had killed a sacred whiptail centipede, destroyed the centipede hatchery, and insulted their deity, this wasn't a battle where prisoners were going to be taken. It wasn't a glorious death that anyone will write stories about.

I generally don't like pulling punches in my games and roll in full view. In doing so, I can't fudge away a character death when the dice do their thing. I'm not inclined to because if players catch on the DM is going to intervene every time death is near with a convenient plot device, it'll cheapen the experience. After all, why roll in combat when you know the DM won't really let you perish, perhaps because you wrote an awesome backstory that fits with the campaign?

Still, it stinks. I can tell she was bummed, and there's not many options for low-level characters. A few weeks ago, I pulled a DM intervention for another gamer whose character died at 1st level due to a really unfortunate random encounter roll. Thanks to befriending some fey, they quested and got hooked up with a druid reincarnate, and a hefty IOU. It was good times and in the past I've turned low-level death into a quest.

Should I intervene, again, though, with another convenient story plot device given I just did so? I've got ideas, but it feels contrived to do this twice in a row and so quickly.

"When they have done something stupid or have not taken precautions, then let the dice fall where they may!" - EGG, 1e DMG pg110

I think the PC's attacking the Xvarts, doing what they did, and then deciding to just leave the dungeon and "hang out for an hour" sipping beer, having a sandwich and maybe catching a couple zz's.... then returning as if they just left qualifies as both stupid and not taking precautions.

But that's me. My DM'ing style is definitely "old skool hard-core"...in todays standards I'm a "Killer DM" I guess. In ye olden days, I was "the most fair and neutral". Oh how times have changed!

So...in 5e...I'd let him die. But I might be so inclined to take the Player aside and say "Hey, do you really want to keep playing her? I can work something out...it won't be pretty, it will be character-changing...but less changing than 'dead'. Loose an arm maybe? Blind in one eye? Terrible PTSD night-terrors? Any ideas?" and then work out the details.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Umbran]

At 2nd level, you've killed some goblins. You're still replaceable. The Duke can just find another adventurer.

Sure. But that's not interesting, now is it? Why choose the explicitly less interesting road?

As to backstories, you have siblings. Roll one up. They're going to avenge your death.

Again, yes, you can do that. But why do it that way? What does this choice add to a game?

 

[Gorg]

While DMing today, a PC died today, 2nd level on the cusp of 3rd. It was partially good DM rolls, partially poor planning. The battle:

Spoiler

The PCs attacked a xvart lair then left to take a 1 hour short rest. Xvarts aren't stupid, and they regrouped the bulk of their forces in a central war room while directing a force to trail the PCs and block any escape. Rather than infiltrating the lair and taking it room-by-room, 5 2nd level PCs faced a very deadly encounter of 13 alert xvarts, 1 xvart warlock, and 1 giant tick. Given the PCs had killed a sacred whiptail centipede, destroyed the centipede hatchery, and insulted their deity, this wasn't a battle where prisoners were going to be taken. It wasn't a glorious death that anyone will write stories about.

I generally don't like pulling punches in my games and roll in full view. In doing so, I can't fudge away a character death when the dice do their thing. I'm not inclined to because if players catch on the DM is going to intervene every time death is near with a convenient plot device, it'll cheapen the experience. After all, why roll in combat when you know the DM won't really let you perish, perhaps because you wrote an awesome backstory that fits with the campaign?

Still, it stinks. I can tell she was bummed, and there's not many options for low-level characters. A few weeks ago, I pulled a DM intervention for another gamer whose character died at 1st level due to a really unfortunate random encounter roll. Thanks to befriending some fey, they quested and got hooked up with a druid reincarnate, and a hefty IOU. It was good times and in the past I've turned low-level death into a quest.

Should I intervene, again, though, with another convenient story plot device given I just did so? I've got ideas, but it feels contrived to do this twice in a row and so quickly.

At low levels like this, rolling up a new character isn't much of a big deal- nor is working that new addition into the campaign/group. Yes, it stinks having your character get squished like a bug- but it's part of the game. And adds to the story.

I've done all the things you mentioned- fudged the occasional roll, added in "one time" mulligans, even a "convenient" intervention by a powerful NPC, who just happened to have a scroll of raise dead- and a need for some fast gold! Whatever made for a more fun game or interesting story. (that guy with the raise dead scroll is STILL talked about by the old players- and it happened 20+ years ago!)

3rd ed added in some extra options for keeping those low level characters alive, too. 0 hp being incapacitated, not dead; saving throw or heal checks to stabilize; that 0 level spell that cures 1 hp, etc. You didn't actually die till -10 hp.
Which meant that when a character WAS killed, it was usually noteworthy. A nasty critical hit; a Coup de Gras (great motivator that, for a long term foe grudge!); Eating a faceful of Black Dragon breath weapon, etc.

But, I agree- doing it too often can hurt the campaign. Not to mention setting players up for an even nastier shock, down the line- when a much loved mid to high level gets whacked. You may want to let this one ride, lest you give players the wrong impression. It'll give that player the opportunity to come up with a new character they may like even more!

 

[Gorg]

"When they have done something stupid or have not taken precautions, then let the dice fall where they may!" - EGG, 1e DMG pg110

I think the PC's attacking the Xvarts, doing what they did, and then deciding to just leave the dungeon and "hang out for an hour" sipping beer, having a sandwich and maybe catching a couple zz's.... then returning as if they just left qualifies as both stupid and not taking precautions.

But that's me. My DM'ing style is definitely "old skool hard-core"...in todays standards I'm a "Killer DM" I guess. In ye olden days, I was "the most fair and neutral". Oh how times have changed!

So...in 5e...I'd let him die. But I might be so inclined to take the Player aside and say "Hey, do you really want to keep playing her? I can work something out...it won't be pretty, it will be character-changing...but less changing than 'dead'. Loose an arm maybe? Blind in one eye? Terrible PTSD night-terrors? Any ideas?" and then work out the details.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Yep- had a group do that on me while playing Sunless Citadel. Turned out to be a blessing- they'd waded through most of the first level with ease, TOO much ease. I took the opportunity to break for the week, there. Then spent the time until the next session having the hobgoblins plan and set up defenses- in case the adventurers came back! Turned out to be a highly amusing session- for me, lol. They were sufficiently miffed that the climactic battle with the Hobs turned out gritty and epic as heck! Nobody likes it when the monsters use their brains...

I'm sure they all thought I was a mean or killer DM- but they lost that overconfidence.

 

[Don Durito]

So, I just absorbed the rules for a new game. And, in this game, it is explicitly stated that the GM cannot kill characters. Characters can get beaten down until they are forced out of a scene, but whether that kills the character is entirely a player's choice.

Character death is only a valuable thing to some players. Make sure that it is for your players before you choose what to do about death.

Generally when I make suggestions about D&D I am assuming you have players that actually want to play D&D/