Let's ban Teleport!

[WizarDru]

Wizards tend to crowd together in mage guilds often, however.

They sure do. And they're a fractious, secretive bunch. They may share resources, but they still aren't terribly powerful or numerous overall, per the DMG...and there's no reason to expect them to cooperate like Paladins for the greater good. Quite the opposite, in fact.

to add to the list in specific:

8) Political motivations
9) Cultural restrictions
10) Public Stigma or Fear

 

[Turanil]

As a DM, I don't want to prevent players to get those few spells they really enjoy: Fireball, Teleport, etc.

I would rather use something else to prevent the infamous BST: those who teleport run the risk of being hi-jacked!
Lets use Teleport as the players wish. However, in areas with high concentration of evil, magic, etc., areas where is a gate to other planes (eve if gate is closed), characters who teleport run the risk of not arriving to their intended destination, but into a bad place perfect for adventuring. It's the reason why most demons / devils won't teleport every minute or so.

 

[Whisper72]

Well.... I truly do not see the big problem here.

As stated, at least under 1e rules (still not well versed in 3.5), the chances of a mis-teleportation were big. They were never nil.

As far as 'familiar', this means you must be truly familiar with it. Having romped around in a dungeon, teleporting out is fine, but you can't simply teleport back. Expecially since you do not know whether the dungeon denizens have moved around the furniture, whatever since last you were there, it cannot be counted as familiar. Thus, though as a last resort, a teleport out could be used, this simply means you start from scratch, with the dungeon denizens alerted...

In all my campaigns, TP was never used for anything but a last resort escape when everything went crapside, mainly because the players were much too afraid to make a TP mishap, from which a simple raise dead did not work (your body is pretty much destroyed if you TP inside a rock, so a RD will result only in you dying again, only a true resurrect would work...)

So, without ever tinkering with the rules, simply adhering to them strictly and ruling on the safe side on the familiarity thing (safe for the DM that is, on the dangerous side for the PC's), there was never any abuse of the spell.

Furthermore, with other powerful 5th level spells available, TP was often not even one of the spells a wizard would have in his/her 'learned' list anyhoo. Cones of Cold and other such spells were needed alot more for Mook Control before even being able to get to / fight the BBEG...

I am just curious how come the spell is so overused in some campaigns, is this because you rule that having seen someplace once or twice means the highest familiarity level is applied wrt miss-chance?? Then this is the fault of the DM, not the spell itself. You ALLOW misuse.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Well.... I truly do not see the big problem here.

As stated, at least under 1e rules (still not well versed in 3.5), the chances of a mis-teleportation were big. They were never nil.

:snip

I am just curious how come the spell is so overused in some campaigns, is this because you rule that having seen someplace once or twice means the highest familiarity level is applied wrt miss-chance?? Then this is the fault of the DM, not the spell itself. You ALLOW misuse.

Yep, I think 1e and 2e rules were good in balancing teleport by adding a dangerous component to the spell which couldn't be removed. Ending up in rock is quite final, unless you're an earth elemental or a ghost (or become a ghost after a bad mishap ). The party wizard always used teleport in critical situations only to get back to the top of his tower (below the tower were some cellar rooms, to minimize the death chance further).

Overuse of teleport came in 3.0: no chance to die, just a bit of damage or landing in a similar area or off target. That has happened some times IMC, but wasn't a big problem at all: just teleport back, or use a proper polymorph when landing in the ocean...3.5 has put a small distance cap on teleport (100 miles/level), so teleporting back may become difficult when landing off target...

 

[Gez]

BoEM is not D&D. Is it now required to use non-D&D sources to make D&D work properly?

It's not a question of not using non-D&D sources. You conveniently missed the point.

It's not because something blatant is not in the core rules that it doesn't exist in the universe. You can be sure the spells of the much-maligned BOEF probably exist in a consistant D&D universe, but they're unlikely to be in referenced during the game by most players, so this kind of stuff is left out of the core rules. Likewise for antimagic defenses. A lot of them are left to the DM's fiat.

Now, if they had teleportation magic available. Who cares for being detected, he only has seconds to react (surely fewer than when Frodo moves up to Mount Doom by foot, once he has been detected inside the stronghold).

As I have explained a lot, if they had teleportation magic available, they could have used it to go back home (but not before Sauron was eliminated, because it was clear that in Tolkien's house-rules, the use of powerful spells is detected by other spellcasters), but not to move to Orodruin. Not possible. Not at all.

1. Gandalf's knowledge of the Mount Doom of now was most certainly imperfect. Volcanoes are mutable places, strongholds of evil are as well. Not having a clear mental picture of what the destination was, he risked misshap or other teleportation errors.
2. Places with strong physical energies can make teleportations hazardous or impossible. A volcano qualifies as a place with strong physical energies. So, not only was teleportation impossible or hazardous because Gandalf's familiarity with the place was insufficient, but it was even more "hazardous or impossible" because there's lot of hot fiery lava and other telluric manifestations.
3. Places with strong magical energies can also make teleportations hazardous or impossible. The mystical birth-place of the most potent ring artifact, only place where it can be destroyed, and just beside the fortress of what could be approximated to a Demon Prince in D&D terms, happens to genuinely qualifies as a place with strong magical energies.

There's no less than three factors that would make a teleportation right before the pit a very bad idea, or something impossible to do. So, the 12-second operation was right out of question. Gandalf would have had to teleport to a close place, but one of which he has an accurate mental picture. Like that Minas Tirith city. Which is still far away enough for Sauron to organize defenses, and which would show him clearly the nature of the threat. So, for the same reason calling upon the eagle allies was a no-no, teleportation was also to be avoided.

For all we know, Gandalf could has been able to teleport. But he never had an opportunity to use it wisely in all of the story.

 

[Thanee]

Even, if you have seen a place only once, the chances to end up there are high enough, and even if not, you can just teleport again.

As Dark Dragon said, there simply is no real risk involved in 3E. Sure as a DM I can always add whatever arbitrary risk to teleporting to make it more difficult, but is that really the better way, to give the players a false feeling of power, but in fact only allowing them to teleport when it suits me and basically turning their Teleport spell into my plot device?

I feel, that would be very wrong, but isn't that what it comes to then?

I'd rather keep stuff like the FR portals in and use those instead. Actually having only portals, but no Teleport could be kinda cool, since the locations of the portals (the magic to create them being long forgotten or only available to very, very few individuals) would be fairly important then. Another, but much more reasonably controllable, way to enter long distance shortcuts.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

The sometimes problematic instant safe retreat (which can really spoil adventures, which do not have a tight time frame) is not so easy to contain, however, unless everytime there is some weird reason why Teleport suddenly doesn't work anymore.

Of course, the instant safe retreat becomes available quite early via the 2nd level spell "rope trick"!

 

[Thanee]

It's not a question of not using non-D&D sources. You conveniently missed the point.

Pure intent.

No, I absolutely see what you mean, but spells like this are a bit more than the stuff in the BoEF, which is left out, because it simply isn't important. Countermeasures to existing spells are important and in most cases printed right into the PHB.

(... because it was clear that in Tolkien's house-rules, the use of powerful spells is detected by other spellcasters)

Heh. Tho, Teleport w/o error would work easily and well... so he detected it. Where's the problem? At this point it is too late!
The part about the strong physical or magical energies is quite valid, of course, but only in this specific example, it certainly doesn't solve the "general problem" (also see above post about using the player's spell as a plot device (and nothing else)).



Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Rope Trick is not 100% safe, since it can be detected and you are still "around". Teleport is (funny enough, altho this is the spell with the failure chance ). Altho, while a bit besides the point, Rope Trick certainly is a bit low at 2nd level, considering what it does.

Anyways...

Is it really so hard to see this point? The difference?

There are plenty people on this thread who have similar experiences with Teleport specifically, so it can't just be my imagination!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dark Dragon]

Of course, the instant safe retreat becomes available quite early via the 2nd level spell "rope trick"!

Hm, IIRC, it needs some time to get a group into that extradimensional place (at least in 2e). Meanwhile, the opponents may foil an organized escape.

Teleport is just easier to use for escape, get quickly from A to B, spoil a setting or adventure hook...

Surely you can block it with Forbiddance, stop an escape with Dimensional Anchor/Lock, but how often will you use it as a DM before it becomes boring?

I won't ban teleport, but moving it to higher levels and/or adding a risky mishap, a lower distance cap (e.g. 1 mile/level for teleport, 10 miles/level for greater teleport, 100 miles/level for teleportation circle, no cap for gate) seem to be some options, IMHO.