Let's ban Teleport!

[ruleslawyer]

The Shire is the Shire. I'm pretty sure we can safely say that Sauron never went to the Shire. Maybe he went to the place that would, later, become the Shire. But with all the changes wrought by time and people, his knowledge of the place is no longer relevant. Or, it becomes actually false enough to ensure he sends his nazguls to a "similar destination" or to a teleport misshap. Kinda embarassing.

Two words for ya: Greater teleport. NONE of the factors you listed are a problem with that spell.

And the power level is of no importance. It's in Arcana Unearthed that teleportation needs a caster power check. In D&D, it's the same probabilities, regardless of wether you're a level 1 wizard with a staff of teleportation, or a level 567 archmage.

This wasn't what I meant about "power level," Gez. I meant that if you're assuming that Sauron is the most powerful being on Middle-Earth (which, BTW, he IS), and that ME is like a D&D world, then Sauron is certainly capable of casting the relevant spells to send the Nazgul to the Shire.

Beside, if there's teleportation magic, there's teleportation anti-magic. From the blatant teleport block, to the insidious teleport redirect. Sauron isn't all powerful, he got his arse ended to him in the last war, and in the meantime, the Wizards and other magicians, elves or humans, could have weaved a lot of teleport disruptor to prevent intrusion from that meddlesome discorporeated enemy.

Hardly likely. There is a notable absence of ward magic anywhere outside Rivendell and Lothlorien, and even the wards of Lothlorien, which are the most powerful on Arda, would not stand "if the Enemy himself came in his full might." Right outta FotR, my friend.

And the argument that teleport isn't a problem because anti-teleport magic exists is really missing the point on two fronts:

1) It doesn't exist in core rules. And no, it's not something that should be hand-waved into the game the same way that pregnancy is. By your own admission, such magic HAS to exist and is very important. My high-level PCs would have to figure out a way to remove the need for sleep if there weren't anti-teleport magic. Yet not a single such spell short of forbiddance exists in the core rules.

2) The influence of teleport magic in rendering the D&D universe different from traditional heroic fantasy worlds isn't necessarily combat-centered, or even primarily combat-centered. Obviating the need for long journeys and rendering small package trade and diplomatic missions instantaneous and nearly riskless has a profound effect on a campaign that goes far, far beyond that possessed by flashy evocation magic (which, incidentally, has a time-honored place in fantasy, what with RE Howard's sorcerers chucking black lightnings and balls of fire and Saruman's use of explosives and other magical/technological siege weapons at Helm's Deep).

Assuming Sauron was stupid enough to not protect his den of unabashed naughtiness from magical intrusion. Somehow, I doesn't think so. Assuming, as well, that Gandalf had seen what Orodruin looks like as of today. Volcanoes in activity tend to change their conformation. Especially when an evil overlord is rebuilding his hellish fortress nearby.

See my points re: greater teleport and core spells above.

Note that I'm not saying (and I don't think Thanee is either) that TP is terrible and impossible to use, but rather that you have to recognize that a game with TP and resurrection (my two major bugbears) is going to look a lot different from a traditional heroic fantasy novel, and that in some cases, that can be a bit of a shame. I've contemplated running a 4th Age Middle Earth campaign, for which I certainly would ban a great number of spells and probably restrict the spellcasting classes severely (perhaps using one of the variants on the ME d20 site).

 

[Thanee]

- Thanee came up with the idea to bane TP while playing not GMing (this tells me quite a bit about how Thanee plays- "its not the destination, its how you got there that matters.")

For me it is actually mostly the part with the safe retreat (there are enough other options, but Teleport is so immensely superior to any of these), or go to the city to fetch whatever is needed instead of coming up with a creative solution. Creativity is no longer required, we now have Teleport, which takes care of all our needs. Teleport is just the dumbfire missile of D&D, so to say. Shoot it at a problem and it goes away.

And I just don't like arbitrary solutions.

BTW, I have included some of the ideas into the first post, like the options to shift Teleport to higher levels or add a cost.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gez]

Two words for ya: Greater teleport. NONE of the factors you listed are a problem with that spell.

None, really?

OK, straight from the horse's mouth:

This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.​

So, the factors I listed were:

• Unreliable information. Is that a "you must have at least a reliable description" I see in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
• Strong physical energies. The GTP spell doesn't say anything changes about this limitation, so I can safely assume that it is, as they say, a spell that "functions like teleport" -- in other words, the factor is still there.
• Strong magical energies. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V the above point.

Hmm... It seems ALL of the factors I listed are a problem with that spell.

 

[ruleslawyer]

You got me, Gez! I haven't caught up on the 3.5 changes to TP, so there you have it...

Never noticed the "strong physical and magical energy" bit. That really makes TP highly subjective.

Of course, having failed utterly at my original stance, I will simply shift arguments ('cause I'm like that) and delve a bit more deeply into the effects of TP on a story like LotR. If Sauron can see Frodo when he puts on the Ring, then he should be able to teleport the Nine straight to the Inn of the Prancing Pony when Frodo puts on the Ring. Worse still, the Witch-King (a powerful sorcerer, remember?) could just do the same and have done with? Welcome to scry-buff-teleport, Tolkien-style, with the single exception that no buffing would be necessary to take out four little hobbits anyway.

 

[Gez]

Actually, that was already in 3.0. I fired up the Sovelior/Sage SRD only to check it hadn't been modified by 3.5.

But on the other hand, you're right that the hobbits would have had to be much more cautious.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Some one has proably said this already, but I don't feel like sifting through seven pages of stuff but just give teleport an expensive material component like a 1000 gp ruby that shatters when used. Give teleport circle the cost of a 1000gp ruby plus 1 1000gp ruby for every person transported. You get the idea...

 

[Talon5]

For me it is actually mostly the part with the safe retreat (there are enough other options, but Teleport is so immensely superior to any of these), or go to the city to fetch whatever is needed instead of coming up with a creative solution. Creativity is no longer required, we now have Teleport, which takes care of all our needs. Teleport is just the dumbfire missile of D&D, so to say. Shoot it at a problem and it goes away.

And I just don't like arbitrary solutions.

Oh, I follow you on that. Fortunately I have creative Players then that list a holocaust cloak and a wheel barrow when formulating plans. I just wish that Coyote6 had them while he was GMing, it would make things so much more fun I think.

BTW, I have included some of the ideas into the first post, like the options to shift Teleport to higher levels or add a cost.

Apologies- this thread is getting long and I can't remember who wrote what. There are a lot of good ideas in here, I think its an interesting thread to say the least.

 

[Incenjucar]

As uncle says, "Magic must defeat magic!"

The problem with Teleport and several other spells is that non-magical beings have no defense against their effect unless they happen to live in a special location.

Want to rid the world of trolls? Teleport raids.

Only so many troll bands are going to have liches protecting them.

 

[Von Ether]

Yep, I agree Thanee, I loathe the Teleport spells and Wind Walk with a passion. While there might be cases where they aren't used abusively, I have yet to see them during play. Besides, I enjoy running lower-magic games, and the whole Teleport suite of spells just rubs me the wrong way. Its just too easy, too fast, and too reliable. Besides, the journey to the destination is more than 1/2 the fun- I don't know how many times I've run/played in games where the PCs have gotten into several smaller adventures on the way to a destination that really added a lot of depth and enjoyment to the game.

On the other hand, some GM's rely on only the ambushes along the way. Our group got Wind Walk and we quickly discovered that all his "plots" just sent us to other locations as bodyguards and couriers. Once it was the PC doing the ambushing, the game came to halt.

I was a little miffed. I was hoping we had gotten to the point that we could make some changes in the world, but that wasn't the point of the game, evidently.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So I disagree with the brusque title of the thread ("Let's ban teleport!") since it suggests that there is something generically wrong with teleport, but I agree that there is no reason why a DM might not want to create a setting which does not have teleportation available - or even limits it for a certain period for story reasons in a standard setting, like when the goddess dies in Piratecats game and all interplanar doohickeys get messed up for a while.

Well put.

As for the humorous jabs, the retort about flying is a completely valid as a serious counterargument. If you remove the standard quick travel abilities, you radically expand the importance of flight.

I must wonder, when the entire party can hop on the carpet, Wind Walk, Overland Flight around and avoid all those precious adventures on the road, is Thanee going to want to rewrite those rules, too? If there is a meaningful campaign goal on the line, delaying this crisis by a few levels is not much of an accomplishment.

I am not saying that there is anything inherently wrong (or right) with considering banning a class of spells. But it is very tempting to be mocking unless the original poster can be more explicit about what goals she had in mind. Just hypothesizing it may be a good idea without clear context and intentions is not convincing at all.

My personal favorite "Teleport-like" variant is a spell that allows stepping into the Plane of Shadow where one can travel at ~50x normal rates. Bizarre eldritch Things wander the shadow roads and it is easy to get lost. It should be obvious there may be added hazards in attempting this near unusally magically potent areas.