Lets debate the pros and cons of Wound/Vitality-points vs. Massive-Dmg-Threshold

[Turanil]

Actually, you don't lose your VP when you suffer a successful critical hit. Damage bypass VP and applied to WP. In addition, when you take damage to WP, you begin to suffer a fatigued condition. The condition remains until you can heal the WP in one day (usually through magical or mystical healing), or you spend 8 consecutive hours of bed rest.

Ah, I had overlooked this part of the rule. Seems to me that VP/WP is thus less easy that I believed (you must track both VP and WP). Mmmmh... so MAS (MDT) is in fact the easier method, plus, as HeapThaumaturgist pointed out, easier to implement when taking creatures out of other d20 sources (like D&D's MM). Also, creatures with 2 hp still have 2 hp...

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

One thing that can't be overlooked in determining how deadly MDT will be in your game, though, is average weapon damage vs. what MDT formula you are using.

For example, using GT, (since that what I've got handy), you want to do a down and dirty Old West adventure. A Colt .45 pistol would do either a d12, 2d6, or d10+2 (depending on what damage variant you were using). You want it deadly, so you use d10+2. You use the flat MDT of 10. 20% of hits will cause an MDT check. Pretty harsh, for the PCs anyway. I like it.

But, in the same situation, if you use MDT=10, and drop the weapon to a .38, damage drops to a d6+2, meaning only crits have a chance to cause an MDT check.

Obviously, you can play with the permutations to your hearts content. This is what I *really* like about MDT. With a little advance number crunching, I can tune the 'grittiness' of the campaign to almost any setting, and not have to change the rules, just the one-time calculation for each player's MDT, and tell them what the weapon damages are for whatever era they are in.

One final thing to consider. In a low (or no) magic firearms game, there are few things that can be done to raise damage much higher than the die roll. There are a couple of feats that can add a point or two, but with no power attack, no flaming +5 swords, no fireballs, etc., average damage is going to be lower than you are used to with D&D.

 

[Christopher Lambert]

One final thing to consider. In a low (or no) magic firearms game, there are few things that can be done to raise damage much higher than the die roll. There are a couple of feats that can add a point or two, but with no power attack, no flaming +5 swords, no fireballs, etc., average damage is going to be lower than you are used to with D&D.

Take a look at the gunslinger class. I don't like it much (why does it have so many hit points!) but at 5th-level it can fire two shots (-2 hit, double damage) as an attack action, making it even better than dual-wielding pistols. (You can do this with a Desert Eagle without having to take -4 to hit or buy two of them as well. Still, you had better be carrying lots of ammunition.)

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm working on a low-magic GT campaign right now and I had to decide on MDS vs VP/WP as well. I ended up going with the MDS.

While the VP/WP system may be a bit more "realistic", I found the MDS was much simpler. For one thing, it didn't require as many mechanics to be changed (if any at all). For example, I wasn't very keen on reworking the crit ranges of weapons. It also requires two sets of numbers to keep track as well as two different types of healing (well 3 if you count nonlethal as well).

I like the VP/WP system but I wanted something fast and easy to use.

As far as player cheating goes (which hopefully isn't an issue for anyone), I don't have that problem but I'll probably keep a list of everyone's MDS just so I know who can take the most damage.

For the record, I'm using the MDS equal to Con + armor and nat armor. I'm also using the Fewer Dead Heroes variant which converts an amount of lethal damage to nonlethal equal to the armor bonus. However, I'm also limiting the defense bonus to the Max Dex bonus of the armor.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Take a look at the gunslinger class. I don't like it much (why does it have so many hit points!) but at 5th-level it can fire two shots (-2 hit, double damage) as an attack action, making it even better than dual-wielding pistols. (You can do this with a Desert Eagle without having to take -4 to hit or buy two of them as well. Still, you had better be carrying lots of ammunition.)

I was using the d20 Modern SRD, and it lists 'lightning shot' for the Gunslinger at 5th, which allows an extra attack. I don't see anything in there about double damage -- only the +3d6 the gunslinger get's at 10th level when he burns an action point.

In any event, MDT is per-hit, not per-round, so things that add dice are deadlier than things that add attacks unless the AC and MDT of the target are fairly low.

I don't play Modern, but the Gunslinger looks like it's a little too much.

 

[Turanil]

Thanks to everybody fo your comments. Reading all of this, I am going to remain on the MDT system. (Still further comments are welcome anyway)

 

[Pbartender]

In any event, MDT is per-hit, not per-round, so things that add dice are deadlier than things that add attacks unless the AC and MDT of the target are fairly low.

Right, but the check for MDT is a flat DC 15, the more times an enemy has to make that check, the more likely they are to fail a check eventually, and more damage doesn't make that DC any higher (Though I like to house rule that). Once your weapon damage exceeds the MDT, there little point in inflicting more damage... Just make more attacks to force more checks.

 

[The Grackle]

I just started playing in a D&D game that will be using the VP/WP variant. So I made a dervish w/2 scimitars and the power critical feat from Complete Warrior. I have yet to see how it plays out, but I'm thinking that multiple attacks w/a good threat range is going to be especially deadly using this system (if not broken).

Personally, I like M&Ms damage saves for modern-type game. I think hitpoint attrition doesn't really have the right feel for firearms combat, which should be more like a % chance that any hit could prove deadly. VP/WP and MDT seem like a way to reconcile a HP system with something it's meant to stop- instant kills.

...but of the 2, I prefer the MDT (set by the GM for deadliness, as opposed to based on straight CON).

 

[Aaron2]

Personally, I like M&Ms damage saves for modern-type game. I think hitpoint attrition doesn't really have the right feel for firearms combat, which should be more like a % chance that any hit could prove deadly. VP/WP and MDT seem like a way to reconcile a HP system with something it's meant to stop- instant kills.

I agree on both account. One thing that bugs me about d20M is that firearms have such a low crit multiple. 20/x2 used to be reserved for lame weapons like clubs and rocks. With a higher critical for firearms, you get much of the benefit of WPs with less risk of a campaign crushing character death 5 minutes into the session.


Aaron

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, the best balance between a "realistic" and "heroic" system is a hybrid SWd20 and D&D.

- VP/WP
- Crits go straight to WP
- Armor as DR (only vs. WP damage)
- High crit multipliers bypass DR (x3 -> 5, x4 -> 10)
- Class-based Defense bonus, which is limited by armor.
- Many mooks don't have any VP at all, just WP.

This models several situations:

1) High crit ranges are great against the unarmored.
2) Armor is great for mooks, less great for heros.
3) High crit multipliers are great against armor (punching daggers, axes, picks).
4) You can wear down a hero, and you can cleave through mooks.
5) Crits are still exciting.

-- N