Lets determine together what the soul is, and what are its game mechanics

[Truth Seeker]

Okay, just to be clear for future readers...this question does NOT have religious overtones on it.

It is dealing with game mechanics and of course, some realism factors as well...but very, very...far from the religious aspects.

Due to the fact, it did happen in the game I am...and the player himself, is newbie of sorts. I want to have as many options on the table as possible, because I do not want the DM to railroad(although, there is not much there to do now...maybe) the player, but none the less, I want options, opinions...anything not thought of before.

Everything dealing with soul in D&D has been regelated to some books...okay, few, but here the problem, as stated by a player here, that such a event has happened and was played out. The problem lies, are the consquences. And right now, the DM has only said, that if the body dies, no raise dead.

Well...from me...that is not just it. That statement is weak(the DM's), and honestly, it doesn't sound though out.

So, from your gaming experience...and only gaming experience.

Give your view and nothing more.

That is all I ask. By the way...Dakkareth & Tonguez...I do like the concepts you guys have put forward.

 

[adwyn]

By and large I've tried to leave the subject of souls somewhat ambiguous, at least in game. The closest to any rules for them I used was no resurrection unless you had your soul, most chose to instead trade the soul for a random magic item.

 

[Corlon]

In my campaign, it hasn't really needed to be dealt with, but it has occured a little bit in our campaign when an evil ghost (arch enemy guy) ate a player's father's soul via weird rituals, diseases, and all that stuff.

But anyways, here's how it's divided:
The body is exaclty what we think the body to be, the physical entity that affects the outside world.

The mind, spirit, whatever, is all your mental abilities.

The soul is the magical force that ties it all together (something more powerful than arcane or divine magic, which is the reason someone's "natural" life span is ridiculously hard to alter if at all).

When a person dies, their soul takes their spirit to whatever afterlife and leaves the body behind. Raising undead basically puts negative energy there instead of a soul. The undead may retain a few memories, but this is from left behind parts of the spirit (in the matter of the brain).

Having your soul eaten gives your life force to the person eating it (I haven't really made statistics for this yet, but it's very hard to do, and it just sounds cool doesn't it?). It would stop you from going to an afterlife, but you would be "retained" inside the consumer's soul, so once it passes on all the rest are let out.

Destroying a soul is impossible, but they can be locked away, eaten, etc.

Needless to say, IMC souls are really hard to even begin to deal with and they're a very big deal if you do deal with them.

my 2 cents.

 

[Truth Seeker]

Hi Everyone...
Just to let everyone know, this subject has caught the attention of a game writer, and he is willing to write an article on it, in Dragon magazine.

So, if anyone else wishes to add their view and game related experience on the matter. Please...continue.

Spammers...you will be fried.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If you want to get back to the basics of what a soul is we should go to the people who did some of the first thinking on what it is and in fact popularized the belief that there is an immortal soul.
That would be greek philosophers, such as Plato.

Also it's difficult to discuss something that is religious by nature (or at least requires some amount of faith to believe in) with out talking about religion.

In my campaign the soul represents the sum of what the character is mentally, it is immortal (obviously) and upon death will do one of three things:
A) Go to some place where it will continue to exist for eternity.
B) Disperse and become part of the universe.
C) Continue to be bound to the material world by some dark magical means (this is how undead are created)

 

[Turanil]

Just to let everyone know, this subject has caught the attention of a game writer, and he is willing to write an article on it, in Dragon magazine.

No problem, but I don't want to be accused of plagiarism when I write my own article on it, and will publish it for free here on Enworld (article that will be based on some of the ideas expressed on this thread).

I should within a few days write down here the basics of my ideas on the subject.

 

[Dakkareth]

Also it's difficult to discuss something that is religious by nature (or at least requires some amount of faith to believe in) with out talking about religion.

Talking about a fantasy world we have the benefit of being able to know and define absolute truth within this context. When the soul is something that can be perceived, undeniably existant, a lot if not all the problems we have in RL with talking about the subject (which indeed would fall under religious talk) go away just like that.

That would be greek philosophers, such as Plato.

Damn. The right thing to do would be to get out the books and read up on it. Sadly I can't muster the strength of will right now

I should within a few days write down here the basics of my ideas on the subject.

I'll keep an eye on this thread then and dig around in the depths of my mind as well.

 

[Marius Delphus]

I like the "trichotomous" (?) approach personally, and something similar underlies my thinking about creatures and other entities in D&D. My thinking is not really complete on this (as it has never come up in game), but I put things in terms of Body, Mind, and Spirit/Soul, so:

Body: A mortal shell.
Mind: Memories, experiences, feelings.
Spirit: The magical "stuff" that ties the two together and forms the third portion of a living creature.

Some related topics:

In Planescape terms, the Mind and Spirit travel to the Outer Planes after the Body's death, where the Mind is partly transformed into a petitioner Body (this is why petitioners do not remember their past lives). Resurrection and True Resurrection, then, can create a Body with true life (whether or not this Body must be manufactured by the spell), restore the Mind, and infuse the Body with the correct Spirit; Raise Dead can only seize the Mind and Spirit (this must occur before the Mind is transformed on the Outer Planes), restore them to the existing Body, and return the Body to true life. As a side effect, this means a petitioner's Body is made from a Mind by some "black box" process on a single Outer Plane, and that's why it can never travel off its home plane.

Animating undead on purpose involves seizing a Mind from the Outer Planes and binding it to a dead Body, using negative energy instead of a Spirit. Somewhere on the Outer Planes, a petitioner disappears, its Spirit left to wander the planes in misery, for its very purpose has been ripped away. The binding with negative energy causes incredible suffering in the Mind that is so mistreated, for not only is it forever denied its eternal reward, but it is now bound through its new, false Spirit to utterly obey its creator, something against which any Mind naturally rebels... except no matter how much the Mind of an undead suffers, it can never again be free. Once the undead is destroyed, the negative energy dissipates and the Mind ceases to exist (as it is no longer coupled to even a false Spirit). Thus, animating undead is quite thoroughly Evil.

All undead, even those created accidentally, have some combination of Body, Mind, and Spirit, but this varies depending on the type of undead. Corporeal undead retain Mind through arcane, divine, or other processes in a Body that has only false life and a false Spirit. Their suffering Minds typically interpret this lack as some form of hunger (see Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead). More powerful undead also experience this hunger drive: Liches hunger for power; vampires hunger for the living. Incorporeal undead have a similar reaction to their lack of Body. (This hunger is the source of the undead's Evil alignment.)

Anyway, as I said, my thinking on this is not really complete, but there is a bit of an outline.

 

[Truth Seeker]

No problem, but I don't want to be accused of plagiarism when I write my own article on it, and will publish it for free here on Enworld (article that will be based on some of the ideas expressed on this thread).

I should within a few days write down here the basics of my ideas on the subject.

Turranil, it will be a pleasure to see your thesis on this subject. And just to let you know, this subject has struck a nerve with the gaming group I am in, but I made sure that DM was warned to stay out, because I wish to hear the different opinions on the matter from other experienced players.

Already, a few are liking the topic(at the other forum I visit), put forth. Well, from my gaming experience, maybe this less then mention area needs to be fully examined at one point.

And there is not time, like the present.

And for everyone else...I know it is hard, trying not to bring any religious aspect into it, but at least try.

I am looking at it, from a gaming mechanics and roleplaying view...and please keep the conversation, civil.

This is a areas of ideas...shared and expressed, and please, keep it going, so far, this has been quite enligthening.

 

[Turanil]

For one thing, thanks to you all for your imput.

The fact is, I had no idea what the soul coul be, in game terms (as in RL this could be an interesting subject, but I have even less ideas or beliefs about it). So I work using your comments and ideas, and like that I am now able to write down a theory for what is the soul in D&D. The theory will be relatively simple, with few and simple mechanics effects, for as a houserule it can be included easily in most campaigns. In any case, it is done with the traditional D&D mythology taken into account: undead, outer-planes, spells related to the soul, etc.

It is a work in progress, that will take a few days before the first draft. I hope being able to write something clear and precise, yet short to read to not bore the reader.

Right now, I have decided to tell this:

- Soul / life / undead: souls should not be confused with positive energy. The magical principle that powers life is the positive energy, not the soul. The soul is what justifies the existence of life, but not what makes it. Because souls must incarnate in life-forms, life exist. But the energy that powers life is not the soul: it's positive energy.
- Now, undead are powered by negative energy that leeches on positive energy through a focus that is a corpse turned into an undead. Yet this has nothing to do with the soul. Some undead have souls (liches, vampires), other don't have a soul (zombies, ghouls). Ghosts, and all immaterial undead are not a "soul turned undead", but an astral body turned undead, rather than a physical body turned undead (astral body exists because ethereal creatures and astral projection spells do exist).

All for today.