Lets determine together what the soul is, and what are its game mechanics

Oy, the soul and stuff like that there! Here's an item I've been wondering about for a while. I had hoped to base my rules on real-world concepts.

For instance:
  • the Platonic New Testament view of man as consisting of three factors: spirit (pneuma), soul (psyche), and body (soma).
  • a Norse view: "The gods found on the land the powerless Ask and Embla without destiny. Spirit they had not, ego they had not, neither blood nor motion nor the form of gods. Spirit gave Odin, ego gave Hoenir, blood gave Lodur and the form of gods." (I haven't worked out exactly what this means yet.)

glass said:
A multi-part soul is quite common in real world mythology (IIRC, the Egyption soul had 9 parts!), and I think it would make sense in D&D too.
9 parts? I've been looking, but I haven't found any information on this. Is there more you can tell us?
 

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Algolei said:
  • spirit (pneuma), soul (psyche), and body (soma).
  • "The gods found on the land the powerless Ask and Embla without destiny. Spirit they had not, ego they had not, neither blood nor motion nor the form of gods. Spirit gave Odin, ego gave Hoenir, blood gave Lodur and the form of gods."

(I haven't worked out exactly what this means yet.)

Me neither!!

The problems with words like "spirit", "soul", "psyche", "mind", and what not, is that they originally refer to the same concepts. In my soul_in_D&D_theory, I try to remain extremely simple to use. Basically:

1) Physical body. The mind is a constant process (thoughts) resulting from the brain's functioning, so belongs to the body.

2) Astral body. Because of spells like Astral Projection or Magic Jar, and creatures like ghosts, I believe it's useful to add something about the astral body. But basically it's a body, that can harbor the mind-thoughts like the physical body. It's made of energy, and when one dies, his/her astral body goes to the outerplanes, bringing the soul with it.

3) Soul. it's a divine spark and pure consciousness principle. (I have decided that) Mortal souls are young souls who must make a moral and definite choice related to the nine alignments and outer planes. The soul reincarnates (going back from outer plane onto material plane, then again on a outer plane upon death) until it has finally made the choice. Once this is done, the soul will incarnate in the outer planes as an outsider (angels, fiends, etc.) that grow in power over time. The more soul in the outer planes, the stronger and larger the outer plane. I also determine that the size of a outer plane is directly linked to the number of souls in it (potentially infinite, yet finite). As such, there is a rationale for the gods wanting to have worshippers: to get more souls in the end, thus grow bigger themselves.

So, with that (rather arbitrarily) determined, it's easier to understand what the soul is, and what will be the game mechanic effects of a body being deprived of its soul, etc.
 

Some philosophers' views, for those interested . . . .

Thales (625-546 BC) wrote that the lodestone has a soul because it moves iron. From this, and other accounts of other Greek philosophers, we find a clear and strong notion that the soul is the part of a thing that grants it the ability to move on its own and to move other things.

Aristotle argued that there were several kinds of souls. Plants, for example, have nutritive souls, because they can take in nutrients and grow. Animals are "higher" than plants because they not only have nutritive souls, they also have locomotive souls because they can move themselves. Humans are "higher" yet because they have rational souls, which means they are capable of understanding and being persuaded by reason.

Plato's notion of the soul includes a description eerily similar to Freud's, but was 2300 years ahead of Freud. Plato thought that souls were eternal, that they existed before bodies did (i.e. that you existed before there was a body for you to live in, here on earth), and that they were completely spiritual things. He also wrote about the reincarnation of the soul, and of the afterlife.

Thomas Aquinas rejected the view, previously accepted in Augustinian Catholicism, that the soul was mostly as Plato suggested. Aquinas adopted Aristotle's view (or a variant of it), that the person was one substance, but that this substance had different elements, and that the soul and the body were two distinguishable elements of the same person.

Dave
 
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I'm liking this conversation and linked it from our gaming boards to hopefully get my GM/players involved as well.

In Turanil's disccusion about a mortal's soul being young and being reincarnated over and over until it makes a choice as to what it wants to be is a very cool one in fact.

And by possibly selling one's soul, short cuts the aging process, giving/making the final choice as to what alignment is will take for eternity. That is why demons want to buy or steal mortals souls. They guarentee that the soul will end up on their side of the court.

Now how does that effect the body and spirit, still haven't determined.
 

Vlos said:
And by possibly selling one's soul, short cuts the aging process, giving/making the final choice as to what alignment is will take for eternity. That is why demons want to buy or steal mortals souls. They guarentee that the soul will end up on their side of the court.
In my view, a demon cannot steal a soul that hasn't already made the definite choice of CE alignment. A demon cannot steal a paladin's soul, but he can steal that of the CE necromancer or brigand. Also, selling one's soul is a nonsense... at least for the buyer (demon lord). The soul is doomed to go to abysses if it has finally chosen CE. But in offering magical power of evil, the demon tempts the mortal in making a definite choice of CE; then in giving him magic it helps create further mayhem on the world, etc. Additionally, it could be that in "selling his soul", the soul goes to a particular demon lord to increase its power rather than another. Nonetheless, selling one's soul or being a priest of a demon lord, finally end to exactly the same result. Also, in my view, one cannot offer the soul of others to a demon lord; however in doing so it immediately makes the final choice of giving his/hers to the abysses...



Vlos said:
Now how does that effect the body and spirit, still haven't determined.
I will try to think of something very simple; that doesn't modify existing rules. My idea right now (but can evolve, especially if others comments and add suggestions) are:

- Since the soul has in fact freedom of choice (to eventually choose one of the 9 alignments), a body without a soul has no saving throw against magic of Compulsion / enchantment charm, as well as possession magic and abilities.

- A character without a soul pursues his goals without concern for the others, unable to change his mind (change his mind requires freedom of choice) until success. As such, a mage who craves magical power and hides his soul in some place, becomes a monster that nothing will be able to change his mind. He will become obsessed with only one thing: getting always more magical power.

- Being unable to get XPs without a soul, or having a penalty, is another possibility.

- A character without a soul eventually appears horribly dull, with no pain, no joy, nothing. A sort of improved automaton. His eyes have something dead in the eyesight, that one can see with a Spot check at DC=20.

- Possibly: temporary loss of 1 wisdom point per week (unless using special magic), and at zero the character becomes a living zombie or living ghoul (not yet an undead) driven only by the most basic instinctual needs and otherwise completely dull.
 

In my view, a demon cannot steal a soul that hasn't already made the definite choice of CE alignment. A demon cannot steal a paladin's soul, but he can steal that of the CE necromancer or brigand. Also, selling one's soul is a nonsense... at least for the buyer (demon lord). The soul is doomed to go to abysses if it has finally chosen CE. But in offering magical power of evil, the demon tempts the mortal in making a definite choice of CE; then in giving him magic it helps create further mayhem on the world, etc. Additionally, it could be that in "selling his soul", the soul goes to a particular demon lord to increase its power rather than another. Nonetheless, selling one's soul or being a priest of a demon lord, finally end to exactly the same result. Also, in my view, one cannot offer the soul of others to a demon lord; however in doing so it immediately makes the final choice of giving his/hers to the abysses...

I think we are on the same lines. Basically in your previous post you mentioned that a soul is reincarnated over and over until it decides. Now a player may decide during game play to "sell" his soul for some untold power. Or even the promise of power. The Demon does not immediately get the player's soul, but rather, the player by "selling" his soul has voiced his opinion that when he dies the next time the demon (or other power) gets his soul. He has "made" his choice.

I also agree that for the most part a soul cannot be stolen, unless by some very powerful magics, and not just from some demon walking over to someone and taking the soul. But in many campaigns there are instances where a soul can be "stolen".

I also like the other posts that state a soul is for the most part indestructable, and when a soul is stolen/trapped it is basically locked away somewhere and the person who has control over it gains the power similar to a plane that a soul has travelled to. Though again there may be rare means at destroying a soul in which case the essence is spread out, gone forever, never reaching the outer planes.
 

Ditto on the various disclaimers about referring to souls, spirits, essences, etc. in game terms only.

Another Disclaimer: Sorry it reads like a textbook, I tried to cram everything in there (lots of very interesting questions in this thread, I haven't had time to read the whole thing yet, but when I do I'll try to add anything I omitted that my little cosmology can explain).


The way I've run the correlation between mind, body, and soul has worked for me in the past without a hitch (quite a few questions, but all answered to the players' acceptance)

Body: A tool and a vessel, nothing more. The body serves to manipulate both matter and energy as the physical world (a world of physics, chemistry, and logic) understands it, and to act as a medium to which the mind and spirit may attatch themselves and interact with anything and everything (with a few exceptions like incorporeal beings).

Mind: A process of thoughts and stored memories. Without a mind, the soul cannot interact with the body, they simply don't speak the same language. The mind is unique in its ability to comprehend both the real and the impossible and communicate with both.

Soul: The supernatural portion of a living being. Magick is what the soul is made of. The soul, alone, is not magical the way my rules describe it, it is simply made of the same stuff, arranged in different ways (like a different atomic configuration or differing wavelengths of energy). Magick (as opposed to magic; a type of magick) is defined IMC as that which science cannot explain (thus magic, extra-planar existance, mystical forces, gods, etc. all fall into this category because some part of the thing is 'unreal'). Unreal and Magick are for the most part interchangeable, as are Real and 'that which science can explain' for the duration of the post.

The 3 parts together form a living being when the right energies and conditions are applied.

When other conditions are applied, the being can be separated, and parts can be altered, broken down, or destroyed entirely.

If the Body is killed, the Mind and Soul are severed and each go their separate ways.
The Mind remains where it died, near the body, in a dormant state, awaiting resurrection or the influx of sensation (with no body, the mind has no reason to work and shuts down until it does). Influx of sensation can include spells like speak with the dead, as the spell creates a link with magic to the Soul, requiring the Mind to translate the 'real' caster with the 'unreal' Soul.
The Soul begins gravitating toward another plane of existance. It's link to the 'real' world gone, it is drawn like a magnet back to the areas of high magick.
The Soul's gravitation is not perfect, similar to the streamers and trails of ionic plasma between a negatively charged cloud and the positively charged earth just before a lightning strike. In life, the soul had been sending streamers toward the planes, gravitating toward the mind/body/soul's alignment, and without the body acting as a shield of 'realness', the energy of the Soul zaps to another plane of existance when it's streamer hits that plane's streamer just right (the method isn't perfect, explaining mix-ups and other anomalies).
The Soul, after gravitating toward one area of the alignment wheel, departs to another plane and becomes a petitioner or extraplanar entity (and is given a new body, similar to an astral body, that is made of Magick-thus since both Soul and "Unreal" Body are made of the same stuff, they can bond perfectly without needing the Mind to translate for one another).
At this point, if the Soul or unreal Body of the petitioner is destroyed, both are destroyed, as evidenced by the fact that extraplanar beings cannot be resurrected.
Divine Bodies may be made of mostly magick and some real stuff, or mostly real and some unreal, or something else alltogether, causing a powerful connection to the energy of their Soul, since the Mind Body and Soul are able to form a more perfect union.

If the Mind is killed the Soul and Body remain together, since the bonding process was completed during the spark of life. However, without the Mind, they cannot communicate or exchange anything. The body dies or goes catatonic/comatose with no source of the mystical (i.e. unreal) energy that causes life to exist.
Charm spells work in a similar manner, supressing the ability of the mind to perform certain functions and forming an artificial, magic interface that the caster can manipulate.
Necromantic spells like animate dead take a dead body and either mutilate the Mind so that it can function with a dead body as a housing (intelligent undead), or replace it with a basic 'catch-all' mind (mindless undead). Undead cannot be resurrected while they are undead because the spell is preventing the mind from being able to work with a live body. Once the necromancy is removed, the healing process of resurrection can begin, rejoining Mind, Body and Soul.

If the Soul is destroyed, Mind and Body no longer have life, and both wither away and return to their base components.
If a Soul is removed but not destroyed, like when it is stolen or kept elsewhere, a magical bond is needed to continue feeding life from the soul to the Mind and Body (through wierd rituals, the enchantments of a phylactery, or a magic jar spell or whatnot). As long as this link is maintained, the mind and body can function normally for the most part.


Magic must be fueled by a Soul, but the Soul must use the Body as a conduit to the Material, which requires the Mind. When permanent magical effects are created, a piece of the soul (represented as experience loss in serious cases) is torn from the whole and used for the eternal fuel source. This spiritual cannibalization is the source of most magical experience loss (necromantic level drains use magic to mutilate a portion of the soul so it can't function with the rest)

Experience is a numerical value representing how well adapted your mind is to functioning with the Body and Soul in their current state. Most physical injuries don't alter the Body's current state as far as the Mind is concerned (nerve damage is the mian exception). Radical changes in the Soul's alignment charge change the energies it draws upon and sends to the Mind for it and the Body to use, thus forcing the mind to relearn how to function and resulting in lost class abilities, spell power, or experience. Destroying parts of the soul also causes experience loss.
As the Mind becomes more accustomed to translating for the Soul and Body in more situations, it is able to channel more energy between the Soul and Body, and able to do it faster and with more precision (which can explain save, attribute, skill, spell ability, class ability, and hp increases).
 

Heh, this is a cool thread. Anywyas IMC the soul is the thing that makes the brain work. the brain and the soul in a way are the same thing, the brain is merely a physical way of keeping everything that makes up the being, where as the soul is an incorporeal means of doing it. The soul contains everything about the being that it belongs to, and once the being dies, it moves out from its body and goes to either...

A. With its deity that it worshipped in life to help them or just to stay there and have fun
B. To a vast plane where all other beings go, regardless of alignment. The plane is higly morphic, and can be altered by the thoughts of the souls within it.

Of course there could also be just a body(the brain being a part of it) and the Soul is just disembodied bioelectricty that has all the memories of the being, and can now travel to different dimensions.
 
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completely ignoring thousands of years of RL thought about the soul seems a bit silly if you want to construct a system of dealing with it, as an added note discussions of the soul aren't inherently religious as some people have assumed :p

D&D conception of body and soul seems closest to a Cartesian Dualism (or certains readings of Aristotle) where there is mind(soul) and body(matter). The spells that let you transfer your essence/soul to a gem (or trap a monsters soul in one while you inhabit its body etc) seem to imply that this assumption is correct. Also, the ressurection spells fit the idea that the mind(soul) is independant from the body(matter) because a human can be reincarnated into the body of a bird or a wolf, for instance. If the soul/mind was dependant on the body/matter then the body of a "lesser" lifeform couldn't support the "greater" soul/mind of the human (and in keeping with our modern understanding, or my understanding of it at least, the brain wouldn't be sufficient to hold human mental capacity, et cetera).

Another bit of possibly supporting evidence would be ghosts (trapped soul/minds somehow given some amount of extension past the death of the flesh) and the fact that the soul can exist independant of the flesh (the soul traveling to the outer planes to the plane of your alignment).

There are, of course, other possible dualistic lines of thought that could fit what I could infer the D&D conception of soul is, but they are basically just different ways of explaining the same outcome.

I think the conception of body + soul + mind/spirit strays a bit from what can be infered from the D&D rules as written, however I may have missed the thrust of this thread and this may be more a discussion about different possible conceptions of soul/body/etc instead of which conception the rules seem to embrace. Although the bit about the souls (partitioners) not remembering their past lives could point to either a "3-term" theory of the nature of living beings or more simply the associated gods mind-wipe the partitioners so they wouldn't possibly be tormented by horrible memories of their past (is this issue addressed in any of the books at all? I can't recall).

Tried to keep the philosophy level down a bit, sorry if I wasn't successful.
 

JDowling said:
completely ignoring thousands of years of RL thought about the soul seems a bit silly if you want to construct a system of dealing with it, as an added note discussions of the soul aren't inherently religious as some people have assumed :p
I agree!

Thinking, thinking....

Several systems seem to assign spirituality to things we wouldn't normally attribute to the supernatural--the voice, the ability to move, stuff like that. Hmmm. I wonder if the six character attributes can be considered along the same lines? (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha.) Hmm, hmm...needs more thinking.
 

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