Lets "fix" the Keep pregens!

Bolongo said:
I've read this argument before and I still don't understand it. Yes, many classes have powers evenly divided between 2 stats.....Again, with the caveat that all this is strictly from a minimaxing perspective

I think in the case of classes with powers divided between 2 stats, minmaxing DOES include "maxing" both stats.

If you did the pure strength cler, for example, you would have few, if any, relevant attacks against will or reflex.

taking a -1 or -2 in str based attacks would be compensated by the fact that a considerable number of mobs have an AC that is about 5 higher than their will save.

"maxing" 2 stats lets you hit more often by letting you decide which defense you will be attacking.
 

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phil500 said:
I think in the case of classes with powers divided between 2 stats, minmaxing DOES include "maxing" both stats.

If you did the pure strength cler, for example, you would have few, if any, relevant attacks against will or reflex.

taking a -1 or -2 in str based attacks would be compensated by the fact that a considerable number of mobs have an AC that is about 5 higher than their will save.

"maxing" 2 stats lets you hit more often by letting you decide which defense you will be attacking.

Your position is defensible, but you're definitely not describing min/maxing. :) You're sacrificing straight-up optimization for versatility, which will hopefully work better in 4e than it did in 3.x--but make no mistake, your guy will be slightly worse at using any of his powers than the Str-maxed Battle Cleric will be at his.
 

So, in this vein. A brief blurb about good racial choices for classes.

With the floating +2, humans can manage to excel at any class. It goes in the primary stat. You may not want to be something like a Star pact warlock, however, unless you ignore your at-will power, only use eldritch blast, and take con only powers.

Cleric-
Dragonborn (str based beater)
Dwarf (wis based blaster
Elf. (though the dex bonus isn't particularly useful for the class, it does help your init and reflex score)
Human. (blast or beat)

Fighter-
Dragonborn and human. All others need not apply.
Yes, you can do a dwarf or elf and buy an 18 str the hard way. you still won't be as good at attacking as a human or dragonborn

Paladin
Dragonborn and human again.
dwarf is present again, but lagging. half-elf could consider the idea, but really, this guy wants to be a warlock.

Ranger
elf wins ranged. Halfling wouldn't be terrible, except he's stuck with shortbows or thrown weapons, and the charisma doesn't do a thing for him.
dragonborn has a place as a melee ranger, though again the charisma is iffy.
Eladrin are passable ranged strikers. The int bonus goes to waste, however. Maybe put your 8 in int if having a penalty bothers you.
human can do either role.


Rogue
halfling! No, really, this is your thing. Who needs favored classes.
human, of course.
elf isn't doing much with the wis bonus, but the dex and your innate speed and rough terrain shifting makes you amazing as a rogue. Similarly, the eladrin isn't doing much with his int bonus. Someone might want a teleporting rogue, but honestly they shift so much, the elf is by far the superior pointy ear.

Warlock
Depends on the build, but this class has room for many, many races, mostly because half the races hand out charisma bonuses. Expect to see a lot of fey warlocks.
Con- human, dwarf, half-elf. Extra bonus here is you can pretty much ditch charisma if you want to, and shove everything into Con and the leftover into Int. Go with 20 con, 14 int, and jack them up at every stat increase. Put the leftover pity point in charisma. You'll get a +1 out of it at level 11.

Cha warlock- tiefling, halfling, dragonborn, half-elf, human
Really, this class is made for half-elves, with one caveat. You aren't going to get a particularly useful at will power from another class until we see more classes. Someone else needs to be primary in Con and (especially) charisma, since so many of the bloody races have charisma bonuses.
ironically, as has been mentioned before, tieflings are comparably lousy at living up to their infernal heritage. Star doesn't look that great for them either.

Warlord
Hey, guess what? Humans and dragonborn, again. We may need another +str race... just, you know, as a thought.
Tieflings can hit the 18 the hard way and jack up the other two stats, but apparently all the attacks are str based, so this doesn't matter that much. Half-elves can do something here, too, I guess, if we really want to continue with second tier choices.

Wizard
Human, tieflings and eladrin. Glad eladrin actually have a niche. Having bonuses to paired stats isn't that helpful. Luckily wizards don't have to care much about their secondary stats unless they want to.


So, yeah. The lesson here? Playing against type doesn't pay that well.
So for the KotS characters, race-wise:
change the fighter's race to human or dragonborn
the paladin is fine
the wizard is fine
the rogue is fine (actually, racially, he's ideal)
the cleric... would be fine if he were a warlock. As it is, he's boosting a secondary and tertiary stat, Yeah. Don't do that. Pick a combat style and switch to either human or dragonborn, or dwarf or elf.


And yes, I know, some people will have problems with this. This is about optimizing them though. You want a +2 in the stat you actually attack with, not your secondaries. And generally speaking, 18 costs a lot, the hard way, but when all is said and done, you don't want to have less than an 18 in your attack stat. Buy a 16, add +2 from race, and you've got a fair amount of points to spend elsewhere, but going less than 18 in your primary stat is a bad plan- unless you plan on solely being a healbot, you're going to fail at your actual role.
 
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Voss said:
Fighter-
Dragonborn and human. All others need not apply.
Yes, you can do a dwarf or elf and buy an 18 str the hard way. you still won't be as good at attacking as a human or dragonborn

Paladin
Dragonborn and human again.
dwarf is present again, but lagging. half-elf could consider the idea, but really, this guy wants to be a warlock.

I understand where you're going with most of the class/race combos, but Defenders I don't get. As a Defender, why would you sink the highest stat into Strength? You are never ever going to outshine a striker in the damage department.

If anything, I would go for the high Con. This way, I make sure I have plenty of Healing Surges to blow through. For a Dragonborn, this also helps immensely with the Breath and the HP's recovered with surges. Strength is good for being able to hit things, but I think strength is more important to a Strength based Rogue or Ranger, than it is to a Defender. The defender is all about not getting hit, and surviving through as many hits as possible. The rest of the party deals with everything else, while you take the damage for them. The leaders will prefer to heal the fighter over anyone else, since healing a fighter in combat is a lot more efficient than healing a wizard.
 

Dwaves/Eladrin are passable as fighter types (dwarves especially) because of the dwarven/eladrin weapon training. They are still down 1 to hit because of 2 lower strength, but the juiced-up weapon focus recovers the lost damage point and they are up 2 in their weapon's secondary stat. It might work out, and heck, warlords can make good use of Int.

I am somewhat partial to human wizards at low levels at least: there are 3 at-will power roles to cover (single target, ranged AoE and close AoE), and only humans can do that. Non-humans will have to give up Thunderwave, and Thunderwave is just plain cool. Now, if there was a +Int/Wis race, they might run away with the wizard class and never look back.

The KotS wizard needs to drop Magic Missile or Ray of Frost and pick up Thunderwave. He also needs to pump his Wis to 16 (Str 11?! why?!).
 

I just don't see it as that useful to give up strength. Yes, you take more hits than everyone else, but that doesn't mean you should be a lump. You should take advantage of your weapon options and weapon bonus. There isn't much reason for a fighter to be attacking at +6, when he can easily be attacking at +8 or +9. And while you won't quite match a striker's damage, you should definitely be dishing out your share. And even then... I'm not sure you can't match it. If you can exploit your opportunity attacks and powers. Hmm. It would require some serious analysis.

There is apparently a feat if you really need extra healing surges. As it is, you can easily have a good strength (18), and a con of 14, and be pretty well off for hit points and healing surges. With the good AC, I don't know that you'll really burn through your 11 healing surges before other party members burn through theirs.

It a preference I guess. I'd rather optimize the character's abilities rather than optimize his ability to be bludgeoned by others.
 

Voss said:
I don't know that you'll really burn through your 11 healing surges before other party members burn through theirs.

From experience, yes, you do. Looking at the Dwarf Fighter from KotSF, he tends to use Second Wind once, and be healed once per encounter. That's 2 surges. At the end of the encounter he typically needs 2-3 surges to heal up. After two encounters, he is running dangerously low on surges, and a third encounter will tap him out. In the meantime, the Wizard and Rogue use an average of 1 surge per encounter (typically it's either 0 or 2), and the Warlord uses 2. The party seems to need an extended rest when the Fighter/Paladin are low on surges. This can sometimes happen before all the Daily powers have been used.

Yes I think the extra surge feat will be invaluable for defenders.
 


Voss said:
Fighter-
Dragonborn and human. All others need not apply.
Yes, you can do a dwarf or elf and buy an 18 str the hard way. you still won't be as good at attacking as a human or dragonborn
Unsurprisingly, I agree with 99% of this post, but I do like dwarven tanks because of Stand Your Ground. :cool:

Oh and on a tangent, but just because it can't be said enough: Tieflings need some errata to be viable at all, because their racial powers don't hold a candle to anyone else's, and their stats disqualify them from the class they should excel at according to the background story.
 


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