Let's Talk About Darkvision

[ARandomGod]

Because the only difference between "paper" and "paper with ink" is the color of that paper.

If you put a piece of blue paper, red paper, and purple paper next to each other and slightly overlapping, the person with darkvision shouldn't be able to tell the difference - they are unable to distinguish color.

If you change the middle piece to black paper, should they suddenly be able to tell the difference?

As for seeing shades of grey, yes, there are shades of grey. But they have nothing to do with real-world color.

I find that it works best if you think of darkvision as similar to echolocation - things are "colored" based on their distance - closer = whiter, farther = blacker.

Thus, engraved runes (dwarves' favored writing method) show up as dark writing on a lighter background, whereas ink on paper isn't enough of a difference in thickness to tell apart.

I say you can read. People who are color blind (even completely so) can read. And, according to how I read the ability, yes you could distinguish between a black sheet of paper and a white one. And a dark red one from a light blue one (although they wouldn't know a light blue from a light red) . Why? Becuase that's how it's written, and it's completely undescribed. Perhaps you're sensing the difference in the molecules that would cause something to be black or white. Who knows?

But, going along with the idea that you couldn't even tell black and white (in a black and white defined vision, which doesn't make sense to ME), I'd still let you read. Difference of not color, but composition and thickness. Not paper on paper, thicker area of writing on thinner area of paper with no writing.

They've done a great job of not explaining darkvision in any way other than ..."ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned)." Which reads to me as 'exactly like normal vision but in black and white'. IE what you would see in a picture if you took it with black and white film.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I am not following your argument. Echolocation is not all a part of darkvision.

I didn't say it was... It was an illustration...

I believe darkvision gives a "false color" reading based on distance from the observer. If it were based on something else - like, say, the actual color of a piece of paper, then you could distinguish color using darkvision, which, specifically, you cannot do.

It also provides some good flavor for dwarves being so carved rune-centric - they can't see paint on the walls, but can see the physical change caused by the carvings.

It allows a person to see in the dark as if the area were illuminated. The only difference is that the person sees in black and white. Given that, why could not a person using darkvision see BLACK ink on WHITE paper?

Because they are completely unable to distinguish color.

Black ink merely changes the color of white paper. Blue ink merely changes the color of natural linen. Unless you are saying that someone in a blue robe should look different than someone in a red robe under darkvision.

 

[two]

Patryn,

You are positing that seeing in black and white (with the clear specification that "colors cannot be discerned", note this does not speficy that greys cannot be seen) rules out greys entirely.

That's quite a leap, and not supported by the rules nor, granted, expressively forbidden by them.

When people say they saw something "in black and white" it does mean, typically, they saw things as if in a black-and-white movie, or black-and-white photograph -- no colors, but plenty of shades of grey. Thus, red ink on white paper in this scheme would be visible as light grey on white, and thus readable/legible.

If you mean what you say, that ONLY black and white is visible -- all greys in between are either thrown out or lumped into "white" or "grey" given their intensity (below 10% or above 90%) -- that sort of sight would be nearly useless, given the low degree of resolution. Looking into a cave from outside (into the dark with light spilling in from behind) would result in nothing -- just a uniform black. Because, if you throw out greys, you are only "reading" pure light and not pure light. Almost everything will be black -- walls, floor, windowsill (if there is one), etc. Then suddenly a pure white square, as sun shines through the window. Then black everywhere else. It will be impossible to see the junction of floor with wall, or wall with ceiling; these will be typically shades of grey, and transformed in your schema into black.

I'm pretty sure this is not the developer's intent. It's very difficult to visualize properly, compared to the "black and white movie" concept.

Go with the obvious answer. It's like a black-and-white movie, or terrain when looking through a night-vision scope. Yes you can read, though possibly with some eye strain.

 

[The Souljourner]

Patryn, that is just not a correct conclusion. The text of darkvision SPECIFICALLY says that you see in Black and White.

Absense of color is completely different than absense of contrast, which is what you're implying. Contrast is what makes things seem darker or lighter. So the dark ink on white paper is mostly visible due to contrast. That's why light yellow ink on white paper is hard to read - plenty of color, but not enough contrast. Dark blue ink on white paper is easy to see. If it were dark grey, it would be just as easy to see. That's what absense of color means... not that you can't distinguish contrast at all, just that you can't tell the difference between red, green, blue etc.

Back on the main subject.... Reading is definitely fine... I'd say even without any eyestrain at all. After all, you normally read in black and white, so why would that be difficult?

Windows and Mirrors are a totally different ballgame. I'd say they work as normal just because it's easier, and because darkvision doesn't specify anything different. It might be cool to change how they work in darkvision, but I'd make SURE to tell the players before any gaming began that darkvision works like XYZ.

-The Souljourner

 

[apsuman]

Because the only difference between "paper" and "paper with ink" is the color of that paper.

If you put a piece of blue paper, red paper, and purple paper next to each other and slightly overlapping, the person with darkvision shouldn't be able to tell the difference - they are unable to distinguish color.

I find this a bit silly.

If I put three pages of the same color blue paper all slightly overlapping in my real world vision I see there are three pages because I see the edge of the pages.

If you change the middle piece to black paper, should they suddenly be able to tell the difference?

Yes. Because they were watching you replace the middle page with a new middle page (now I am being silly)

As for seeing shades of grey, yes, there are shades of grey. But they have nothing to do with real-world color.

I find that it works best if you think of darkvision as similar to echolocation - things are "colored" based on their distance - closer = whiter, farther = blacker.

Thus, engraved runes (dwarves' favored writing method) show up as dark writing on a lighter background, whereas ink on paper isn't enough of a difference in thickness to tell apart.

As far as I can tel,l you are simply applying your own opinion to the darkvision gray areas.

 

[Henry]

Patryn says "Black and White", others say "Grayscale" - but there is one drawing in the DMG that lends credence to Patryn's version, that of the photo attached to the "Darkvision" ability entry (the one with a mindflayer as seen by Darkvision). I don't know if the picture made it to the 3.5 version of the DMG, but it's in the 3E version. Man, is that a freaky picture.

Not saying grayscale is precluded, but either version is equally valid. Even in the case of pure black and white only, there's still room for a version that sees pure black words on white paper. But to me, Patryn's version does sound more plausible if one is seeking an explanation for why it works other than "it's magic."

 

[two]

When talking about Darkvision, clearly there is a large grey area.

Ba-da-da-boom.

 

[two]

Patryn says "Black and White", others say "Grayscale" - but there is one drawing in the DMG that lends credence to Patryn's version, that of the photo attached to the "Darkvision" ability entry (the one with a mindflayer as seen by Darkvision). I don't know if the picture made it to the 3.5 version of the DMG, but it's in the 3E version. Man, is that a freaky picture.

Not saying grayscale is precluded, but either version is equally valid. Even in the case of pure black and white only, there's still room for a version that sees pure black words on white paper. But to me, Patryn's version does sound more plausible if one is seeking an explanation for why it works other than "it's magic."

Just to repeat, if you throw out all greyscale (all grays) and everything is just rendered in (either black or white), Darkvision will be essentially useless most of the time. Because in most interiors, with relatively uniform light illumination, there will not be a lot of contrast between the lightest part in the room and the darkest part. Meaning, 99% of the room will be either all white, or all black. (imagine ye olde typical sewer or dungeon). There won't be any contrast between the edge of a table and the floor beneath it, or the orc coming at you and the wall behind the orc. They will just all be "black". Or, in a very well lit room, everything will be "white" (a white-out as in a snowstorm). This sort of vision is worthless in most cases. Except in a place where there are extreme contrasts, where the line between light and dark will be (in this case) very well delineated. But that's rare.

However, to be absolutely pedantic, "greyscale" can alse be understood as simply a collection of small black and white dots (a visual illusion exploited, for example, by newspaper greyscale photos), so if you wanted to think of seeing "grey" as seeing a scramble of distinct white and black dots, that's fine. Plus it is totally in line with Patryn's view -- all you see is black and white. It just LOOKS grey because of the optional illusion factor.

There, bringing people together. That's me.

 

[Mr. Kaze]

Patryn's version is the most valid for people who (like me) demand valid explinations for how the world works -- like "How does SR know to resist a flaming sphere, but ignores Alchemist fire, but can't tell the difference between an acid flask and an acid arrow?" -- but it's also treading very close to quite rarified "blindsight."

If you've seen the original Pitch Black, you've got some lovely shots which are remarkably similar to Patryn's quasi-echolocation reasoning for darkvision. But they're also very definitely behaving in a manner of blindsight. (I'm surprised nobody compared that to the quite quite nasty illithid pic in the old DMG...)

But the other thing that's not being mentioned here being... How does a Ring of Darkhidden (Magic of Faerun) work if it only make you invisible if it's dark and somebody's trying to see you with darkvision? If a person with darkvision can't tell the difference between you and the darkness around you (but only when it's dark), then it would seem to me that "behaving in a manner of blindsight" is probably the more accurate reason because the ring isn't visually suppressing you.

But I'm more concerned about what they've done to SR and Spell Immunity in 3.5 (especially with Psionic powers like "Crystal Shard"), so I'm willing to let the "given what I learned about light in 7th grade, how is darkvision supposed to work?" thing slide. Heck, I have trouble keeping track of what the board looks like in any amount of darkness as is without saying that Darkvision doesn't work like normal vision but sans light.

::Kaze (had a Fomorian with a spiked chain. And some humans with a torch. Wasn't pretty when it was realized that the humans were in threatened squares by a creature they couldn't even see -- cuz they'd been killing the Fomorian as if they could see it. Sad for the Fomorian.)

 

[apsuman]

Patryn says "Black and White", others say "Grayscale" - but there is one drawing in the DMG that lends credence to Patryn's version, that of the photo attached to the "Darkvision" ability entry (the one with a mindflayer as seen by Darkvision). I don't know if the picture made it to the 3.5 version of the DMG, but it's in the 3E version. Man, is that a freaky picture.

Not saying grayscale is precluded, but either version is equally valid. Even in the case of pure black and white only, there's still room for a version that sees pure black words on white paper. But to me, Patryn's version does sound more plausible if one is seeking an explanation for why it works other than "it's magic."

I don't think each version is equally valid. I don't have the pic here with me, and if anyone has it please post if if allowed. But, in the picture of the mindflayer might not have any gray in it, butit sure as h e double hockey sticks doesn't have any "echolocation"-closer-things-are-whiter-and-distant things-are-blacker effect to it.

Using the Mindflayer pictures as an example, iirc, you can see detail in the picure of items that according to Patryn would fail the "three pages of paper test." There are rocks, I think that are in front of other rocks that by Patryn's test you would not be able to see. I thought that the mindflayer was very detailed in the darkvision picture meaning that you see detail in such fine acuity that you would have to be able to read with darkvision.