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Let's Talk About Darkvision
- Thread starter edbonny
- Start date
Psimancer
First Post
Its funny, at the start of this argument, I was firmly on the side of “like a black and white movie”, but I’m starting to change my perspective…
The party I am running has been down in the Underdark for a while and only one member of the group has darkvision. I have been trying to justify why the bad guys would ever really need a light source… fire for heat and cooking was the best I had come up with so far, but I can ‘magic up’ a light free alternative… but adding in the “no contrast” aspect would definitely move the ability into a realm that I was more comfortable with…
Thanks for the ‘discussion’ guys, I have definitely seen the light (he he), it has definitely changed the way that I see things (ha ha) and I will definitely be changing the way I run it… thanx.
The party I am running has been down in the Underdark for a while and only one member of the group has darkvision. I have been trying to justify why the bad guys would ever really need a light source… fire for heat and cooking was the best I had come up with so far, but I can ‘magic up’ a light free alternative… but adding in the “no contrast” aspect would definitely move the ability into a realm that I was more comfortable with…
Thanks for the ‘discussion’ guys, I have definitely seen the light (he he), it has definitely changed the way that I see things (ha ha) and I will definitely be changing the way I run it… thanx.
Ogrork the Mighty
Explorer
Darn! You beat me to it...
Quasqueton
First Post
Actually, black is no color, white is all colors.
In my campaign, I've ruled that only creatures that have evolved and lived underground (or in similar lightless environments) have darkvision. And darkvision replaces lightvision, is not in addition to. So a creature with darkvision 60' sees in black and white for only 60' even in the bright sunlight.
This makes for some really interesting concepts. You can be invisible with a lit torch and darkvision will not register anything unusual. Creature with darkvision are used to vision ending at 60', and tend to be uneasy with wide open areas (like above ground). Color means nothing to them, so you can't identify someone by the colors of their garments. I've allowed reading with darkvision mostly because it is debatable (as this thread proves) to disallow it. Plus, I would assume that a race with only darkvision would improvise or invent a method of writing they could read.
Quasqueton
In my campaign, I've ruled that only creatures that have evolved and lived underground (or in similar lightless environments) have darkvision. And darkvision replaces lightvision, is not in addition to. So a creature with darkvision 60' sees in black and white for only 60' even in the bright sunlight.
This makes for some really interesting concepts. You can be invisible with a lit torch and darkvision will not register anything unusual. Creature with darkvision are used to vision ending at 60', and tend to be uneasy with wide open areas (like above ground). Color means nothing to them, so you can't identify someone by the colors of their garments. I've allowed reading with darkvision mostly because it is debatable (as this thread proves) to disallow it. Plus, I would assume that a race with only darkvision would improvise or invent a method of writing they could read.
Quasqueton
MerakSpielman
First Post
Thing is, all the books really say is that darkvision
A) only works in the dark
B) only works to a specified distance
C) functions just like normal sight except
D) it is only in black and white.
All of this congecture to come up with a mechanism is pointless. Honestly, why do you really need a mechanism to explain it? Isn't it enough that it, and rules to figure it out in-game, exist?
A) only works in the dark
B) only works to a specified distance
C) functions just like normal sight except
D) it is only in black and white.
All of this congecture to come up with a mechanism is pointless. Honestly, why do you really need a mechanism to explain it? Isn't it enough that it, and rules to figure it out in-game, exist?
Three_Haligonians
First Post
I realise a lot has already been said about this post, but I think I have a point that hasn't been brought up yet. As a visual arts grad, I spent a lot of my first year learning colour theory, and I am going to attempt to explain optics. If there is an optometrist on EN world, I'm sorry if I've made any mistakes.
Okay, now that I've finished with my disclaimer . . . The reason why we see things is solely based on light. Right now, I can distinguish between the computer and the wall behind it because light is reflecting into my eyes differently. The frequency of the light wave tells me what hue it is, and what shade it is.
The Darkvision ability states that you can see in black and white, which I interpret to mean SHADES. Our eyes contain cones and rods. Cones tell us about hues, our rods tell us about shades. If I was completely colour-blind, my cones would not operate, and I would see the world as a black and white film. I would not interpret darkvision as having no contrast, because of the problems with this that other people have already pointed out (ie. not being able to see the cave opening, because the stone is only slightly lighter than the shadows within). I would not consider the echolocation theory for one reason: Darkvision does not give you any bonuses when detecting someone hidden by Greater Invisibility. If it were a matter of echolocation, then you would instantly know that the invisible wizard was standing 3 metres infront of you. Besides, echolocation for eyes is what our vision is!
Now, Darkvision states that the person can see WITHOUT light source. There are only TWO possible explainations for this. 1) Darkvision is magical. End of story. Or, more rationally, 2) Darkvision operates as a VERY lowlight vision.
Consider, the only place where there is absolutely NO light is a blackhole. Does your campaign take place within a black hole? If so, you've got a whole host of other problems. Otherwise, there has to be SOME light, just not very much at all. Our eyes would not be able to detect it. If you treat Darkvision as a VERY lowlight vision, all your problems are solved:
Of course the drow in the "lightless" cavern can read, because some miniscule amount of light is bouncing off the white paper, and off the black ink (at a very different frequencies) and into his eyes. He can also see a reflection in the mirror, because some small amount of light is bouncing off the cavern walls, into the mirror, and then back into his eyes. When he looks at a pane of glass, he sees the next room, which is slightly lighter shades than the room he is in, due to refraction through the glass.
Whew. I know this is very long, but it was the shortest way I could express myself. Please keep in mind, that no matter how black you may think a cavern in the underdark is, physics dictates that there IS some amount of light, it just is not perceived by the limited visual range of humans.
R from Three Haligonians
Okay, now that I've finished with my disclaimer . . . The reason why we see things is solely based on light. Right now, I can distinguish between the computer and the wall behind it because light is reflecting into my eyes differently. The frequency of the light wave tells me what hue it is, and what shade it is.
The Darkvision ability states that you can see in black and white, which I interpret to mean SHADES. Our eyes contain cones and rods. Cones tell us about hues, our rods tell us about shades. If I was completely colour-blind, my cones would not operate, and I would see the world as a black and white film. I would not interpret darkvision as having no contrast, because of the problems with this that other people have already pointed out (ie. not being able to see the cave opening, because the stone is only slightly lighter than the shadows within). I would not consider the echolocation theory for one reason: Darkvision does not give you any bonuses when detecting someone hidden by Greater Invisibility. If it were a matter of echolocation, then you would instantly know that the invisible wizard was standing 3 metres infront of you. Besides, echolocation for eyes is what our vision is!
Now, Darkvision states that the person can see WITHOUT light source. There are only TWO possible explainations for this. 1) Darkvision is magical. End of story. Or, more rationally, 2) Darkvision operates as a VERY lowlight vision.
Consider, the only place where there is absolutely NO light is a blackhole. Does your campaign take place within a black hole? If so, you've got a whole host of other problems. Otherwise, there has to be SOME light, just not very much at all. Our eyes would not be able to detect it. If you treat Darkvision as a VERY lowlight vision, all your problems are solved:
Of course the drow in the "lightless" cavern can read, because some miniscule amount of light is bouncing off the white paper, and off the black ink (at a very different frequencies) and into his eyes. He can also see a reflection in the mirror, because some small amount of light is bouncing off the cavern walls, into the mirror, and then back into his eyes. When he looks at a pane of glass, he sees the next room, which is slightly lighter shades than the room he is in, due to refraction through the glass.
Whew. I know this is very long, but it was the shortest way I could express myself. Please keep in mind, that no matter how black you may think a cavern in the underdark is, physics dictates that there IS some amount of light, it just is not perceived by the limited visual range of humans.
R from Three Haligonians
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
MerakSpielman said:
I don't recall reading A anywhere.
The Souljourner
First Post
Yeah... here's the crux of the matter.... it says it works just like normal sight except it's in black and white. Black and white is a very common phrase used to describe grayscale TV and movies. If they meant anything else, they would say something else. And since nothing says any different, you can read while using darkvision.
I mean, who's to say you *can't* read with darkvision? Maybe it's simply detecting the relative spin of bozons, which is obviously different for every material. Sure, if you decide "Darkvision is due to XYZ science" then, yes, you could come up with things like this.... but it was intentionally *not* explained.
-The Souljourner
I mean, who's to say you *can't* read with darkvision? Maybe it's simply detecting the relative spin of bozons, which is obviously different for every material. Sure, if you decide "Darkvision is due to XYZ science" then, yes, you could come up with things like this.... but it was intentionally *not* explained.
-The Souljourner
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