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Let's Talk About Darkvision

It really depends on which idea is cooler or more aesthetically pleasing in one's head.

Personally, the idea that darkvision can't distinguish black ink on white paper sounds really lame, because it would involve a Dwarf taking out a slab of granite and carving words in it ala Fred Flintstone every time they wanted to write. Next you'll tell me Dwarves use birds as can openers.

I do seriously like the idea of seeing 60 foot cones emanating from Dwarves when you use darkvision, though.
 
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Quasqueton said:
Actually, black is no color, white is all colors.
Actually, strictly speaking, black, white and grey are all achromatic colours (that is colours without hue)… We <could> go into a whole debate involving additive and subtractive primary colours, as well as delving to the realms of hues, tints and shades, but lets not… (sorry, bugbear of mine – I hate it when people say that black is not a colour!)


Abraxas said:
In order to see farther than 60, 90 or 120 feet (depending on the race in question).
Sorry, I don’t really see that as valid given the following ranges:

Torch: 20’ (40’ shadowy)
Lamp: 15’ (30’ shadowy)
Lantern: 60’ (120’ shadowy)


The extended range is more a liability than the (limited/shadowy) benefit that it provides… In other words, if I were a drow, I would be reluctant to make use of mundane light sources… And as soon as you add magic into the equation, it would be just as easy to have an item that amplifies and extends your darkvision…

Light: as per torch
Daylight: as per lantern



DonaldRumsfeldsTofu said:
…Personally, the idea that darkvision can't distinguish black ink on white paper sounds really lame, because it would involve a Dwarf taking out a slab of granite and carving words in…
Yep; kinda explains dwarven ruins as far as I’m concerned… they would most definitely be readable with darkvision…
 

I like Patryn's view of distance location as the essence, however...

I find a few views in it contradictory. For instance, you state that you cannot see a fish in the water because the surface of the water is closer. That means that you are really picking up the closest thing toward your "vision". Well if the water blocks your sight of the fish, how small or "thin" does something have to be before it blocks your sight by being closer?

To put another way. A transparent veil, under this theory, would hide anything behind it. The veil is closer, thus anything beyond cannot be seen. So no, you couldn't see the monster behind the veil. (although I'm sure a Medusa could still get ya ;) )

Well the problem arises with say, rain... Each droplet would be closer than what was beyond it, thus, this would seriously impend your vision. What about fog? Fog droplets are too small to see, yet they are closer than everything beyond, so even a light fog would blind a darkvision user. How about dust, or better yet, what about air or a colorless gas different from air? It is "in front" and closer than everything else...

Personally, I like to think of darkvision as working off the same mechanics as normal vision, just as the rules say it does. People can read and do most of the same things they could with normal vision, except seeing far.

If a player wanted an explanation, I'd go with this. "You can see edges". Sure, edges are a effect created by seeing color and light, and darkvision works without light. But if the rules say it works like normal vision, one would assume that it's mechanics must function off something similar. Real physics in D&D aren't that important to me. Edges can give you lots of detail, but at the same time you loose so much. A sunset would look hardly noticeable (due to the subtle changes), reading wouldn't be hard at all, and seeing underwater would be about as difficult as in normal conditions.

Henry - I love that picture. I think it represents the "edges" quite well. And yes, that would be freaky scary jumping out at you, used to darkvision or not!
 

First, I'd generally go with the "black and white, sort of like old movies" idea, though perhaps a bit cruder than nice Hollywood stock.

FWIW, a minor nitpick.

Psimancer said:
Sorry, I don’t really see that as valid given the following ranges:

Torch: 20’ (40’ shadowy)
Lamp: 15’ (30’ shadowy)
Lantern: 60’ (120’ shadowy)

A bullseye lantern has a 60 foot cone; a regular lantern is 30 ft. radius.

Psimancer said:
Light: as per torch
Daylight: as per lantern

Daylight isn't "as lantern", as that would be either a cone or only 30 ft; daylight is 60 ft. radius.

Which still isn't any better than darkvision. :)

However, if you have a long corridor or other open space (say, longer than your darkvision reaches), and you put your guards at the close end, and put lights either along the corridor or just at the far end, then you can illuminate targets farther than 60/90/120 feet away without giving away your own position (at least not precisely). Thus, there is a reason for Underdark-dwellers to use light sources -- just not so much up close and personal as at a distance.

Though some races might still use some dim lights, so they can appreciate colors, for a variety of aesthetic reasons.

Another idea to make darkvision interesting would be to let darkvision see colors -- but not the same colors. And not necessarily with any reliable correspondence -- perhaps one blue flower looks kazayn to darkvision, while another flower of a nearly identical blue would look octarine.
 

Psimancer, sure, but what about those giant dwarven/drow/illithid caverns, halls, etc. They stretch out hundreds of feet and are built to be impressive, not too impressive when you can only see 60 feet in front of you. Put some torches up, and now that Hall of Ye Olde Almost-Infinite Kings that took three centeries to perfect is now lit and enjoyable. Or the Cavern of Brain Sucking Tapestries. :)
 

Shalewind said:
Well the problem arises with say, rain...

Yeah... I hear those dwarves living in their underground cities complain about rain a lot :)

(Reminds me of the scene in the cave in The Thirteenth Warrior - "Go on, make it worse... now it's going to rain!")

-Hyp.
 

Just my 2 cp, based on what the books say and what the designers did with 3E, and of course based on simply the nature and presentation of D&D.

1. Darkvision was made to replace infravision because the latter brought up all kinds of complications, being thermal vision and all that. Darkvision is very purposefully simple in description. It says it works like normal sight except everything is seen in black and white, with anything beyond the ability's range appearing as a blank gray void (see the actual text in the 3.0 DMG; in the example, Tordek sees a lightless cavern as though lit normally, except everything's in shades of gray/black/white, and beyond is just a gray haze). The two pictures of mind flayers also shows this to an extent; the mind flayer can be seen just fine with darkvision, even the many little details of its clothing and that clothing's different shading, but it's not nearly so clear as old "black and white" movies. The mind flayer looks decidedly more scary and monstrous in the dark, gritty grayscale of darkvision. {:^D

Distance obviously isn't the determination of black/white/gray shading, it's definately based on the actual colors of things; stuff that would be dark in color appear as darker gray or black in darkvision, and stuff that would be lighter in color appear as more of a light grayish or white shade in darkvision. Some parts of the mind flayer appear just a dark as the far stalactites, and some parts of those far stalactites are just as white as some of the details on the mind flayer. Darkvision doesn't see light and doesn't see sound, heat, or whatnot, nor does it see shadows I think, as a result. Real-world science would dictate that if darkvision were really just super-low-light vision, then the character would be able to discern some limited color, but then it would also dictate that the character would be blinded by sunlight or torchlight (permanently!) if they tried to look in such light while using darkvision.

2. D&D is a fantasy game and its worlds are composed of the four traditional elements (air, earth, fire, and water), the two D&D energies (positive and negative), and their combinations. Matter in D&D is not a collection of atoms and molecules, it's a morass of elemental and energy types melded together. Real-world physics, chemistry, and such do not apply, aside from whatever analogous fantasy-sciences may be chosen to exist in the D&D worlds (such as smokepowder in Faerun, which functions like gunpowder mostly but was created or something by the deity Gond).

Light and darkness in D&D are the interactions of the elements and energies of the six Inner Planes, and these elements and energies are what compose the D&D universes/multiverses. Magical darkness in D&D is impenetrable to darkvision (except maybe in 3.5, but then, I haven't wasted my money on 3.5 and don't put much stock in that edition's quirky rules tweaks) as well as normal vision. Only certain creatures (like some fiends) have the ability to see through magical darkness (which is a force unto itself, definitely not merely the absence of light). Darkvision is a nonmagical extraordinary ability for most creatures who have it, but then, so is certain types of damage reduction, for instance, as well as various druidic abilities like timeless body and a druid's immunity to most poisons. Darkvision obviously operates on seeing something that normal sight cannot see, but still related to light in some way and thus limited in many similar ways (perhaps in the same way matter relates to anti-matter or the relation between light and shadow in the real world). D&D operates on fantasy science, not real-world science, and if you're going to try explaining D&D stuff like Darkvision with real science, you may as well try explaining nonmagical Timeless Body, Rage, Damage Reduction, Poison Immunity, and a realistic evolution for owlbears and griffons and hydras. {:^D

Thus, all those dark elven wizards can read their spellbooks just fine in their lightless abodes of the Underdark, those dwarves can read a treasure map in a completely-dark underground labrynth, and those mind flayers can admire the beautiful Ethereal Tapestry they just took from those pesky adventurers they just brain-feasted upon in their Underdark lair. They can see just fine through translucent veils, transparent glass, thin sheets of vellum, pools of water, and so on.
 

coyote6 said:
First,A bullseye lantern has a 60 foot cone; a regular lantern is 30 ft. radius.
Yeah, yeah, it was the quickly typed abridged version, with bonus errors! ;)


coyote6 said:
Which still isn't any better than darkvision.
...which was my point... :)


coyote6 said:
…and you put your guards at the close end, and put lights either along the corridor or just at the far end, then you can illuminate targets farther than 60/90/120 feet away without giving away your own position (at least not precisely)…
Thus giving away your presence and your best combat tactic; ambush… Why illuminate your target when the chances are they will be illuminating themselves with torches and lanterns…


coyote6 said:
Another idea to make darkvision interesting would be to let darkvision see colors -- but not the same colors. And not necessarily with any reliable correspondence -- perhaps one blue flower looks kazayn to darkvision, while another flower of a nearly identical blue would look octarine.
Funny that you say that, because when you are in the dark for a long time, you do start to see colours, just not the correct one! It’s to do with you brain going haywire…


ThirdWizard said:
Psimancer, sure, but what about those giant dwarven/drow/illithid caverns, halls, etc. They stretch out hundreds of feet and are built to be impressive, not too impressive when you can only see 60 feet in front of you. Put some torches up, and now that Hall of Ye Olde Almost-Infinite Kings that took three centeries to perfect is now lit and enjoyable. Or the Cavern of Brain Sucking Tapestries. :)
Agreed, another reason I want to run it like that… I guess I want a ‘crunch’ reason to do it, not just a ‘fluff’ one…

I guess, at the end of the day, the 'no contrast' version adds more to the game than I feel that it takes away... but I guess we are moving into the realms of personal preference here...
 

To be clear, I have always used the "grayscale TV" approach to Darkvision when I DM - mainly because of K.I.S.S. (not the rock band). :) But either approach is equally valid, and can be defended and rationalized, especially if someone wants something a little more than "it's magic."
 

The extended range is more a liability than the (limited/shadowy) benefit that it provides… In other words, if I were a drow, I would be reluctant to make use of mundane light sources… And as soon as you add magic into the equation, it would be just as easy to have an item that amplifies and extends your darkvision…
You missed the point. Underground races wouldn't use light sources right next to their guards - they would use them at a distance so other darkvision using critters would have to cross lighted areas. Underground races are often described living in large open underground spaces with distances greater than the limits of their darkvision. In order to be able to observe all those areas they will need some form of illumination.

It doesn't help dwarven scouts much if the drow walk up in the dark and shoot first because the range of their darkvision is greater. Plus you don't get much warning if the first you see of the enemy is at a distance of 60, 90 or 120 feet. Heck it doesn't help much when creatures with low-light vision lurk in the area of shadowy illumination on the outskirts of a light source - they can easily be out of range for darkvision but be in range to see clearly with their low-light vision (we have an Elven Archer Ranger who uses this tactic to great effect when fighting creatures with darkvision).

Mundane means of illumination work for everyone, are generally cheaper and aren't subject to dispelling and anti magic effects - magically enhanced darkvision only benefits those under the effects of the item/spell.

Plus, as has been said - how awe inspiring is a 300 foot long hall if you can only 60 feet? And, you don't believe all creatures with darkvision prefer seeing everything in black and white do you? :)
 

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