Let's Talk About Darkvision

[Pielorinho]

Given that Patryn's version disallows seeing anything through water (if I understand correctly), I think I can put the nail in the theory's coffin with one word:

Sahaugin.

How do these guys function in the complete dark of the underdark? They've got blindsense 30'; since they can't see through water, does that mean all their attacks have a 50% miss chance?

Daniel

 

[Lamoni]

Two points. First of all, grayscale IS black and white... at least the greyscale you see on computer monitors and printed on paper. There is no grey light beam that hits the monitor and there is no grey ink droplet that drops onto the printer paper. It is just a lot of black dots seperated by white spaces... or white dots seperated by black spaces. People that talk about eliminating greyscale would really be eliminating any useful vision because no matter how large the black and white dots are, if shrink down or seen from a distance, it will appear grey.

Point 2: It says that darkvision works just like normal vision. Well, normal vision distinguishes things based on their color (in a very broad sense... meaning the intensity and wavelengths of light) Normal vision does not determine distance. We can determine distance because we have two eyes and our brain can do some very quick trigonometry. With only one eye it is very difficult to see distance unless you move your head at least a little... or if you look at something that is moving. Making darkvision work differently changes the properties of vision so that it would give you bonuses and penalties to different things.

edit: Normal vision sees things in black and white... or at least with very little color in low light. You can often see well enough to follow a path in just starlight, but have someone hold up a sheet of paper of a random color and it will be quite hard to make out even if you can see that there is a paper there with no problem. That is because our cones don't work well under low light while our cones do. It is easy to just extrapolate further for darkvision. And it keeps it quite simple.

Point 3 (sorry I thought I only had 2 points): About black being no color and white being all colors... it just depends on where your background is... chemists, physicists, artists, art software engineers, and printer manufacturers may all define things differently. It is hard to argue definitions when the terms in the definition can all be defined differently. Each definition is correct in how they define them. But most artists talk about colors while physicists would argue that they were only meaning pigments. That is the physicists problem because the artists still know what they are talking about.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sahaugin.

How do these guys function in the complete dark of the underdark? They've got blindsense 30'; since they can't see through water, does that mean all their attacks have a 50% miss chance?

Daniel

Easy, and you said it yourself. They've got Blindsense out to 30' when in water. Out beyond 30', they're blind without a lightsource, so long as they're underwater. Granted, just about everything else is, as well.

When they come out of the water, they've got Darkvision 60'.

I don't think this argument supports your case.

Blindsense (Ex): A sahuagin can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sahuagin is underwater.

 

[Pielorinho]

Patryn, I took that into account in my post: that's why I referred to their 50% miss chance. Reread the description of blindsense. It's not as good as blindsight; all it does is tell you what square your concealed opponent is in, but you still suffer a 50% miss chance on attacking them.

Do you see this as correct, that sahaugin's darkvision is useless underwater, and that all their attacks should suffer a 50% miss chance?

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

A reference:

BLINDSIGHT AND BLINDSENSE

Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

• Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.

• Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).

• Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.

• Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.

• Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.

• Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Note, also, that in the quoted text about blindsight, it says that a creature cannot read with blindsight. It is interesting that they make this note under blindsight, but no similar note exists for darkvision.

Daniel

 

[Abraxas]

My bad, I should have used 'carry a light source'...

No Problem

posted by Psimancer
No... You generally find that colour is an adaptation that occurs in a colour-sight based environment...

Drow did not evolve in the underdark, they were driven into it and adapted. So the need to see color or desire to see color is quite believable - its a carry over from earlier times. Do you think all creatures with darkvision are color blind? Nothing I've read would indicate that to be the case.


As to why would they carry light sources.

In general - almost all of the intelligent races that have darkvision do not spend 100% of their time underground in lightless environments. In fact, the truly subterranean intelligent races don't have darkvision, they have blindsight. Now, would races with darkvision normally walk around with light sources going? No, I don't think so - but once things start happening, the ability to see farther than 60, 90 or 120 feet may necessitate the use of light sources.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn, I took that into account in my post: that's why I referred to their 50% miss chance. Reread the description of blindsense. It's not as good as blindsight; all it does is tell you what square your concealed opponent is in, but you still suffer a 50% miss chance on attacking them.

Do you see this as correct, that sahaugin's darkvision is useless underwater, and that all their attacks should suffer a 50% miss chance?

If sahaugin could see to 60' underwater under any circumstances (as in, Darkvision worked under water), why would they need Blindsense 30'?

 

[Pielorinho]

For the same reason anyone else does: to see invisible/hidden creatures.

If Darkvision doesn't work underwater, why would you give the ability to creatures that exist almost exclusively underwater?

Daniel

 

[MerakSpielman]

If sahaugin could see to 60' underwater under any circumstances (as in, Darkvision worked under water), why would they need Blindsense 30'?

In case they get physically blinded, or are in a squids ink cloud, etc...