D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[W'rkncacnter]

Without going all AK47, early firearms generally run into the problem that their historical rate of fire is nowhere near the number of attacks that D&D characters can have per round, especially considering fighters. So firearms in D&D either go the way of re-fluffed crossbows and hit a rate of fire unmatched until the 19th century, or go the way of "magical attacks" with single high-damage effects and become essentially non-weapons for the purpose of abilities, feats, etc. Expectations can be hard to reconcile with the rules and that turns some people off.

i mean, honestly, heavy crossbows aren't exactly better in this regard.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I know that "verisimilitude" and "simulationism" can be seen as dirty words in some people's eyes. And you can work your way around those words by dressing it up as "thematic details" and "aesthetic preferences". But I'm just going to come out and say it:

Guns don't belong in medieval style fantasy. It breaks verisimilitude. It's not realistic.

Modern guns sure, but...there were guns in the middle ages.

Shotguns, .45s, and sniper rifles are not the equivalent of fireballs, crossbow bolts, and longbows. Armor like chainmail is effectively useless against guns.

And heavy warbows, and yet, maille was use at the same time as the best warbows.

There's a reason guns completely changed what warfare and violence means to humanity.

Which took centuries.

D&D means having knights whack each other with swords and wizards blasting each other with spells, and real world guns generally don't fit into that.

For you, sure. Once you start talking about what belonga or doesn't...nah.

 

[AlViking]

That's simple. If you weren't born with magical talent, have had access to a magical education, or made a bargain with a back-alley devil, then you likely don't use magic and are reliant on good, old-fashioned technology. Then there's always the struggle between the Haves and the Haves Not—people without magic may view those with magic as potentially dangerous, and some may seek any technology to even the odds.

Anyone who is going to be dedicated and intelligent enough to invent stuff is likely going to be able to master the basics of magic, at least we'll enough to cast cantrips.

Also goes without saying that there's no guarantee that chemistry works the same. Mundane gunpowder may not even be possible.

 

[AlViking]

i mean, honestly, heavy crossbows aren't exactly better in this regard.

I ban crossbow expertise for a reason.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Anyone who is going to be dedicated and intelligent enough to invent stuff is likely going to be able to master the basics of magic, at least we'll enough to cast cantrips.

i would guess "inventing things" and "casting magic" would be entirely different skillsets requiring very different talents, actually

 

[AlViking]

i would guess "inventing things" and "casting magic" would be entirely different skillsets requiring very different talents, actually

Agree to disagree on multiple points. People didn't go from nothing to flintlock rifles, the first guns were pretty awful. They were still used because of the fear and awe caused.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I ban crossbow expertise for a reason.

crossbow expertise only increases and spreads the silliness. a heavy crossbow probably requires a cranequin or windlass to load, and you're not loading and firing that thing every 6 seconds unless you have the superhuman strength to pull back the bowstring without assistance. which, like, okay, maybe if you have 20 strength, but how many 20 strength characters are actually using crossbows?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Agree to disagree on multiple points. People didn't go from nothing to flintlock rifles, the first guns were pretty awful. They were still used because of the fear and awe caused.

...and ease of training and logistics, but i don't see how that's related to my point anyway?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Anyone who is going to be dedicated and intelligent enough to invent stuff is likely going to be able to master the basics of magic, at least we'll enough to cast cantrips.

still doesn't mean they'll have access to the required resources needed to start learning magic though, or they might have been dissuaded from pursuing it - 'your pa studied magic and all it got him was killed and his soul eaten, don't let me catch you studying any of that arcane rubbish arthur'

Also goes without saying that there's no guarantee that chemistry works the same. Mundane gunpowder may not even be possible.

it doesn't matter if it works like it does in our world unless players are going to be metagaming coming up with how to create stuff, so it doesn't need to be gunpowder it's 'dragon dust' or 'sparksoot', and it works enough like gunpowder for 99% of situations that matter and doesn't work like it in the 1% where it games the system.