D&D 5E (2014) Let's Talk About Guns in 5E

[TwoSix]

Doesn't combat as war just demand effectiveness, and ingenuity only matters if there is no tried and true way of getting the job done?

I'm reasonably sure that the "combat as war" camp wants effectiveness WHEN it's the result of ingenuity and planning.

The characters might want overpowered weapons that kill all enemies with zero risk, but I don't think there are many players advocating for that to be added to the game.

(Note I'm not saying guns would automatically be overpowered. Just that I don't think there's a faction of players that wants to destroy game balance simply because it makes a better simulation.)

 

[Reynard]

I'm reasonably sure that the "combat as war" camp wants effectiveness WHEN it's the result of ingenuity and planning.

The characters might want overpowered weapons that kill all enemies with zero risk, but I don't think there are many players advocating for that to be added to the game.

(Note I'm not saying guns would automatically be overpowered. Just that I don't think there's a faction of players that wants to destroy game balance simply because it makes a better simulation.)

My response was based mostly on my (limited) understanding of the terms. I don't think I have ever played "combat as war" D&D even in the old days. Everyone always wants to look cool in addition to winning.

 

[TwoSix]

My response was based mostly on my (limited) understanding of the terms. I don't think I have ever played "combat as war" D&D even in the old days. Everyone always wants to look cool in addition to winning.

To me, "combat as war" is where game play revolves around "There are two dozen goblins in the main hall. Instead of risking a big melee, we lock all the doors and then throw in poison gas".

 

[Reynard]

To me, "combat as war" is where game play revolves around "There are two dozen goblins in the main hall. Instead of risking a big melee, we lock all the doors and then throw in poison gas".

Sure. But it can also be "we shoot them full of arrows" if that works, too.

That is to say: if you always looking for the most ingenious way to win because it makes it more fun, you are still doing combat as sport. It's just a different sport.

 

[Laurefindel]

I don't like guns in my default D&D fantasy mostly for immersive reasons, and expectation of genre.

I continue to say that guns add a strong flavour to a setting however, and disproportionally impose their own genre over other categories of weapon.

Personally, I find it much easier to envision loss of hp as "turning a lethal blow into a lesser one" with melee combat or with make-believe spells and magical effects, than with gun bullets. The former are easier to romanticize, the latter is too familiar.

 

[Laurefindel]

Sure. But it can also be "we shoot them full of arrows" if that works, too.

That's still combat-as-sport, obeying a doctrine of "let's see who will win this fight!"

That is to say: if you always looking for the most ingenious way to win because it makes it more fun, you are still doing combat as sport. It's just a different sport.

"We shoot them full of arrows from a position of advantage as they are resting or negating their ability to fight back" is combat-as-war, obeying a doctrine that combat shouldn't seek to be fair, balanced, or based on skills.

 

[JamesLFlowers]

my main thing with guns is, if they're relatively modern (think post us civil war) or later, i prefer they feel DIFFERENT then most other weapons. not better, necessarily, just obviously different enough to feel it.

So, historically in the real world, very high tech firearms existed long before the period of the US Civil War. In fact, high capacity repeating firearms existed long before the US Revolution. They were simply very expensive, very hard to manufacturer, and finicky as could be. That is why the militaries of the world used muzzle loaders until the 1860s, it fit their ideologies and were highly reliable.

Now an adventurer, especially a mid-level successful one would likely have the gold to buy or commission something more than a blunderbuss. But then you have to look at reliability and supply chains. An Archer can go in the woods and make arrows, maybe not the best, but workable. Homemade gunpowder is not so simple, and likely to be filthy and low powered. Of course magic and magictech science impact that supply chain, depending on the world your characters are in.

 

[AlViking]

I don't use guns in my D&D game both because of expectations and I'm also not sure they'd ever advance much beyond the experimental stage in a world with magic, but that's another topic.

If I did allow them I don't see that it would be that big of a deal. Assume that armor is good enough to stop bullets and assume action movie logic. Being a sniper requires a significant amount of specialized training and most snipers are only effective as part of a team, they aren't magical super soldiers. Considering the exaggerated range and firing speed bows have*, firearms aren't significantly more effective. If someone wants to start using a fully automatic weapon, have them track ammunition and force reloads.

* the effective range for hunting with a bow is generally considered 60-120 feet. Arrows were used in combat at much farther distance, but as part of a volley and not an individual target.

 

[payn]

Sure. But it can also be "we shoot them full of arrows" if that works, too.

That is to say: if you always looking for the most ingenious way to win because it makes it more fun, you are still doing combat as sport. It's just a different sport.

Thats not how the term works. Combat as sport is about meeting within the field diamond and proceeding as the rules dictate with the combat. The way to beat the goblins is to fight them, at range is within bounds if you use the combat rules as written. Combat as war is finding ingenious plans that avoid the combat rules or set them up overwhelmingly in the PCs' favor. Its not about a fair fight for fair fights sake, its about rewarding skill play.

 

[Tonguez]

Spell Sniper Feat and Distant Spell already gets eldritch lance to 1200 ft = a quarter mile
not the easiest build, but then a martial sniper needs to be challenged for range and accuracy too